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Here we go again. White stringy faeces.

Joined
27 Oct 2009
Messages
2,919
Location
Cumbria
Noticed my male Ram has gone off its food and white stringy faeces. Been here before and never actually cured it but this seems to have just came on and the fish is still in relative good shape so maybe this time.

Any suggestions on meds to try that are shrimp safe? Working away at the minute so can't set up a hospital tank however I can get someone to dose meds to the main tank.

Was looking at metroplex, ideally something That could be picked up at P@H or Maidenhead otherwise I'll have to order on line and get be t day delivery.

Cheers

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He's not eating right now Jon. Having a peck at dry foods then spitting it out. I noticed he was a bit elusive last night, Friday was eating frozen blood worm then tonight noticed the string faeces.

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rams do spit food out when feeding ,you say here we go again what happened last time ? how did you treat it? sorry don't know about meds and shrimp .hope it gets better.regards jon
 
Hi
Sorry to hear about your Ram.
U may want to consider treatment with Levamisole HCL.
It is available not too expensive as 8% solution as Harkers"Harka Verm" bird wormer.It is aquarium and shrimp safe.
It is light sensitive so treat with lights off.
Try to get some live food after treatment to see if is going to be tempted .
Regards Konsa
 
Go ahead with the Metroplex - Seachem I'm guessing?
It can work as a "bath" but is far more effective as a medicated feed, pick up their Focus as well if possible - it assists with the binding of meds to the food particles, also "holds" the food~med complex together once in the tank
Seachem also suggests use of Entice or Garlic Guard to improve palatability but none of my fish ever seemed to appreciate this; I found adding decapsulated brine shrimp eggs helped with food response (I often feed decaps to my fish)

I soak frozen bloodworms etc with metronidazole as these are foods my fish will still eat in medicated form - only feed medicated food when treating, you may also have to feed less frequently so that fish eat significant amounts (need to obtain therapeutic levels)

Soak food for 10 - 15 minutes, then drain dry off the excess med/focus before feeding (I found that continued dumping of the medicated solution seemed to negatively impact shrimp population & some plants)
If I soaked food too long (eg 30min) my fish would just spit & refuse to eat

If your fish will eat dry foods or freeze dried foods soaked with meds, these foods will often "soak up" more med than frozen foods


From Seachem (possibly more details on their discussion forum)
Use 1-2 measures (included) per every 40 L (10 US gallons). Repeat this dose every 48 hours for up to 3 weeks or until symptoms disappear.
Depending on your water parameters, you may need to dose higher or more frequently - best to do a 25% water change before each dose if possible (this is general procedure when medicating)

Once you're back home, I'd isolate the ram & any other fish not eating & continue treatment in a hospital tank
Treat the main tank with frequent water changes for the next couple weeks

Often with internal parasites, 2-3 treatments at intervals are needed to eradicate the disease agent (re various life stages)

Also consider why the ram became ill - try to identify stress factors
 
Struggling to get hold of the Seachem Metroplex in the UK. Can't find anyone stocking it. Seems to be plenty of harkers stuff but not sure which one to get or dosage to see what size bottle can anybody link or suggest please?

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Hi
Most likely U will find Harka verm as a 8% Levamisole solution in 100ml bottles.

http://www.harkersonline.co.uk/product/treatments/harka-verm-pigeon-worming-treatment-2/
U are aiming for 2mg/l concentration. I was advised by Darrel that I need 2ml of solution for my 70l tank but because is quite safe we agreed to dose 5ml to be on the safe side.
I purchased mine of ebay as was free shipping.
The original discussion is here:
http://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1/?searchterm=levamisole
Regards Konsa
 
Levaminsole, as mentioned, flubendazole (a bit gentler but needs longer treatment), or metroplex if they are still eating. If I have apistos that stop taking frozen food I often can still get them to eat live daphnia or grindal/white worms. Normally that gets them out of the funk but in that case I'm not sure if stopping to feed was due to gut infection or just mood swing/stress.
 
Hi
Most likely U will find Harka verm as a 8% Levamisole solution in 100ml bottles.

Thanks @Konsa , I have a 100ltr tank, not sure how to achieve 2mg/l concentration or how long to dose for so please could you advise if 1x100ml bottle will be enough to do this? Not sure if you linked the wrong page, was there a discussion on ukaps I can read? I can get this from Amazon next day so will order as soon as I know how much I need, sooner the better I think.

Levaminsole, as mentioned, flubendazole (a bit gentler but needs longer treatment), or metroplex if they are still eating. If I have apistos that stop taking frozen food I often can still get them to eat live daphnia or grindal/white worms. Normally that gets them out of the funk but in that case I'm not sure if stopping to feed was due to gut infection or just mood swing/stress.

Thanks @Bart Hazes , from what I have seen the fish is interested in food but doesn't appear to swallow the food, it still looks like a well rounded fish so I would say it's at an early stage. I will see if I can get hold of Metroplex but it seems to be more a US product. Perhaps that's to do with sale of certain drugs in the UK. I know last time I tried to get hold of Metronidazole which was a long time ago I needed a vets prescription. Luckily a friends mother worked in a vets as a receptionist.
 
Also consider why the ram became ill - try to identify stress factors

Not sure what might have caused it. The male Ram is the king of the tank, the water conditions are slightly higher than I would like but up to last week the pair were spawning. I don't have any other tanks running so no cross infection and no new fish additions other than a couple of Amanos about three weeks ago.

rams do spit food out when feeding ,you say here we go again what happened last time ? how did you treat it? sorry don't know about meds and shrimp .hope it gets better.regards jon

Always lost the fish before Jon, they basically starved to death. Seems very common (to me anyway) in cichlids, never experienced it in any other fish. I have previously had Rams and Discus suffer from it and as mentioned earlier the drugs I needed were hard to come by.
 
is it bacteria from blood worm causing the problem ?

Do you mean from the Frozen Bloodworm? If so that's definitely something that's crossed my mind. I've only starting feeding it over the last couple of months at half a cube once per week.
 
from what I have seen the fish is interested in food but doesn't appear to swallow the food

This is a classic internal parasite symptom - so much so that without a (microscopic) diagnosis, it's where I'd start treatment

I've fed frozen bloodworm, brine shrimp, daphnia etc for years & have yet to experience any negative effect, I do feed Hikari (good sterilization process of all their frozen foods) & buy from shops with exemplary freezers (care of frozen foods) & store at home in a (manual defrost) chest freezer rather than a fridge freezer (seldom as cold & most run auto-defrost cycles)

The levamisole is much more effective/broad spectrum than metroplex & less resistance than observed with flubendazole
Begin with a 2mg/litre dosage (more effective at pH less than 7.2), you can slowly increase this to 10mg/l BUT I'd not subject shrimp etc to this - depending on fish species, they may appear unaffected or quite stressed by the levamisole bath
As with metroplex, switch to levamisole-soaked food for (much) better efficacy
Again soak for only 10min, it is less palatable than metroplex~food, again Focus will assist with binding (also seems to improve palatability)

Treat 3-5 days "On"
Then 5-7 days "Off" but restart medicated food sooner if symptoms persist/return
Treat 3-4 days
Monitor tank for next 1-2 weeks, a third treatment is unlikely unless there is a disease source in the tank
- but depending on the disease agent, a repeat treatment at 3 & 6 months after the last medicated food cycle, may be beneficial


If buying the linked bird medication (unbelievable this is available without a script when Metroplex is not :eek: ), it seems to be 80mg/ml so nicely concentrated allowing you to avoid introducing high levels of other components in the mix - hopefully bottle has an ingredient list

Contains levamisole hydrochloride 8%w/v (80mg/ml).

80mg/ml x 3ml ~ 240mg in 100 litre tank volume ~ 2.4mg/ml
The dosage instructions for medication use in fish tanks is always done with bare tanks as the reference, so err on the side of slightly more rather than less - some percentage of the active ingredient will always be impacted by various tank factors (dissolved in water column, sequestered by filter, substrate etc)

Ideally,
Day 1 - 25% water change, add 3ml
Day 2 - repeat water change & dose 3ml
Day 3 - repeat water change & dose 3ml

NOTE - if fish still shedding & not eating, continue this water change & dose for Day 4, 5, 6, 7
After Day 7, continue as indicated below regardless of symptoms
Then restart the Cycle after the 72 hours of running carbon

(though if this is necessary I'd find another levamisole source, it should not be this ineffective unless there is some dosing issue, easiest is replace with a different lot # medication if possible, or purchase from a vet etc where you can see how the medication is stored - a major issue with online medicated compound sales regardless of market or drug, there are also black (?) market versions of drugs that are very well done "fakes")

Day 4 - 50% water change, run good quality activated carbon (Seachem etc for Reef tanks is much better binding than most sold for freshwater)
Day 5 - 7 25% water changes (this a standard disease treatment protocol)
Remove carbon after 72hours & dispose (note you won't need much reef carbon, maybe 10-20g to treat100l)

If fish seem back to normal, feed mediated food for 3 days, beginning 2 weeks after last levamisole dose (ie Day 17 or 18 ... 2 weeks is long enough for most parasite egg stages to begin hatching etc, not enough time for most parasites to restablish in numbers & mature to egg production stage)

The stringy white feces is intestinal shed - an effort by the host to remove/dislodge parasite from the intestinal tract, this usually contains some numbers of parasites (& possibly multistage) hence the daily water change & bottom syphoning of bare treatment tanks, all glass surfaces would also to wiped down daily
 
Hi
Yes one bottle is plenty.I am using it regularly once every 4-6 months as a prevention because I keep South American Puffers(Asselus puffers ) and feed them only live foods (bloodworm, glassworm,daphnia ,various snails,assellus aquaticus and Crangonyx pseudogracilis ,amano shrimp larvae)
I havent noticed any ill affect on shrimps(Amanos I keep with them).I do bigger waterchanges (80%)after treatment but I do one dose only as is prevention treatment.
Levamisole is light sensitive so have your lights off when U dose it.
Regards Konsa
 
Hi all,
The levamisole is much more effective/broad spectrum than metroplex & less resistance than observed with flubendazole
U may want to consider treatment with Levamisole HCL.
It is available not too expensive as 8% solution as Harkers"Harka Verm" bird wormer. It is aquarium and shrimp safe.
That is what <"I've done in the past">, I always suspect Camallanus infection with Dwarf cichlids from commercial sources. The problem is that it can take ~6 weeks to show symptoms.

cheers Darrel
 
That is what <"I've done in the past">, I always suspect Camallanus infection with Dwarf cichlids from commercial sources. The problem is that it can take ~6 weeks to show symptoms.

Timescale sounds about right Darrel for showing symptoms. I tend to agree, only ever experienced this with Cichlids. Ordered the stuff from Amazon and it was dispatched this morning, hopefully it will turn up before the weekend while I'm about to carry out the meds and partial water changes.

Been having a think about the dosing. With dimensions of 600x450x450 most calculators suggest approx 125ltrs, not sure if that means filled to the brim. Allowing say 10% for hardscape which gets cancelled out by my canister which holds approx 8 to 10 ltrs. Would 4ml be enough caution you think?

Just to confirm I carry this out for 3days then if improvement I move on to 50% changes and carbon or just do it for the 7 days to be a bit belt and braces?

Thanks everybody for getting involved. Hope I can save a fish for once! Never had any luck with meds but that was probably due to not seeing any symptoms until the fish was severely weakened.
 
Now then, as is always the way with my hobby here's something to add a bit of confusion to the whole situation.

Managed to get home this evening and some observations, male Ram is looking a bit stripey although still seems alert, displays to female, chases anything that strays too close it doesn't like the look of and comes to the top of the tank when he sees me approach.no signs of laboured breathing. Added some prima, flakes and catfish pellets for a feed before lights out so the bottom dwellers get something and again Male pecks at a couple of bits of prima sort of half hearted and then leaves it alone, just about to go to bed as lights are knocking off shortly and notice that he's sitting on a load of eggs you can maybe just make out in the pic.

Now this pair have had many spawns before which have led to nothing after a couple of days. I find the male is a better parent than the female, so now I'm thinking is he reluctant to eat because of the eggs? However I can't deny that a couple of days ago white stringy faeces about inch long was there. Not lumpy like I have seen before in other fish but hair like.

Could the fish parent instinct be over riding the fact that the fish is it itself Ill. I think I should go ahead with the treatment anyway as a precautionary measure? Not intending trying to save any of the fry, they wouldn't stand a chance in a community tank anyway.
575663db8ee46018db5bd4b68a33584d.jpg


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