What my angels are doing?

[Madhav]

Tank is 90cmx45cmx45cm
8 blue angels around 1yr of age
3 koi angels temporary tank mates

I know its over stocked but my intention was to identify a potential pair and to remove all others.

This tank is for breeding angels, atleast try my luck.

Can anybody tell me is this the first signs to identify the pair?

#They chase other angels away
#they dont bother other fish and not swimming together now
#clean the dirt away from the filter inlet surface




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[Progen]

They're most likely preparing a laying site. I'd be hoping that their eggs are infertile and a third party comes into the picture soon because once they start pairing off and laying eggs, you'll be seeing eggs every 1 - 2 months.

 

[zozo]

Yup if they are chasing others away, thay are mating up and inspecting and preparing that pipe for spawning. You could wait till you see eggs before removing the others. For angels this is pretty obvious, since they use a vertical surface for spawning you will notice the white eggs easily. And it takes a while before the pair desides to abandon the nest or eat the eggs themselfs.

Actualy i never witnessed what realy happens, but in a community tank where they are threatened by other predators. One day all eggs are just gone, kinda over night. So i guess the parents eat them out of frustration or something..

 

[Madhav]

They're most likely preparing a laying site. I'd be hoping that their eggs are infertile and a third party comes into the picture soon because once they start pairing off and laying eggs, you'll be seeing eggs every 1 - 2 months.

Fertile or infertile? Im confused with your statements. Any way I take it as fertile as I am hoping to get a third party soon..

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[Madhav]

Yup if they are chasing others away, thay are mating up and inspecting and preparing that pipe for spawning. You could wait till you see eggs before removing the others. For angels this is pretty obvious, since they use a vertical surface for spawning you will notice the white eggs easily. And it takes a while before the pair desides to abandon the nest or eat the eggs themselfs.

Actualy i never witnessed what realy happens, but in a community tank where they are threatened by other predators. One day all eggs are just gone, kinda over night. So i guess the parents eat them out of frustration or something..

3 koi sent to their permanent home. Now left with 8 of same breed blue angels.

Is it a good idea to use a tank partition to isolate the pair, without affecting water movement? I see the grid is 1" square fish cant cross but for water, less obstruction.

Or temporarily move the others to a separate tank? I have a spare 2ft tank and filter. Media is not a problem.

Too excited...

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[zozo]

I'm not a angel breeder, i just was lucky to get them to spawn several times in a community tank. So i kinda witnessed their breeding behaivor several times. But since it was a community tank, never realy got any fry to survive to adults. This is pretty hard if not impossible to achieve in a community tank. Dunno i never did. They always eat their own eggs if bodered to much in their rearing process i guess.

So i'm experienced in recognizing their behaivor, but rearing fry.. You have to wait for somebody else.. I bet there are enough..

 

[Progen]

Same as breeding shrimps. Most of the time, the little fry get sucked into filters and die inside or get churned up.

You'll need to standby live tiny stuff like freshly hatched brine shrimp although I used Hikari fry food which is just basically finely ground fish food.

They're not difficult but once they're free swimming, if you want a high survival rate, you'll need to remove ALL adults, including their parents, and anything else which might eat them.

Because of their fairly large sizes as adults, low demands and market prices plus large tank requirements, breeding angels is not a good idea.

 

[Mick.Dk]

I breed angels - but agree you will not make money out of it - it is fun, though, if you want to observe parential behaviour in cichlids.
Your angels have obviously paired off and are cleaning a space for laying their eggs (probaply done, by now!). For successfull (natural) breeding, you will need a tank for the pair on their own. Usually first-time breeding pair do not succeed, but often they learn after 2, 3 or 4 times. Some never learn, though.
A huge( = 30-50%) wayerchange ofyen induce breeding behaviour. Temp must ne high (=28-30 celcius) to secure eggs hatch and especially that larvae (=newly hatched) will have high enough metabolism, to get free swimming. From eggs laid to free swimming is usually 5-7 fays, depending a lot of temp.
Newly hatched brine shrimp must be prepared to be ready at first day of free swimming, since fry have then up-used their energy from the egg. Very ofyen the fry will refuse to eat non-moving food (=crushed dry-food) for several weeks, probaply by instinct. Crushed dry-food must then be "sneaked" inbetween live food gradually. Food needs to be given at least 3 times a day - more often if possible - in high doses. Serious waterchanges are essential daily, to secure fresh water, or fry will be permanently damaged(=croocked fins, non-developed gill-caps to mention a few). Good luck and have patience - it is a lot of fun!!!

 

[Madhav]

Same as breeding shrimps. Most of the time, the little fry get sucked into filters and die inside or get churned up.

You'll need to standby live tiny stuff like freshly hatched brine shrimp although I used Hikari fry food which is just basically finely ground fish food.

They're not difficult but once they're free swimming, if you want a high survival rate, you'll need to remove ALL adults, including their parents, and anything else which might eat them.

Because of their fairly large sizes as adults, low demands and market prices plus large tank requirements, breeding angels is not a good idea.

Hmmm with my eheim I think all the fry will be sucked in, I am not planning to have any special arrangements for the fry except fry food

I am just excited to breed them not making money out of it, so worst case if I cant handle such bio load or requirements then I will give away


Lets see how it goes

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[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hmmm with my eheim I think all the fry will be sucked in

I have a <"large sponge block"> on the intake of the filters, it acts as a browsing surface for any fry , as well as stopping fry (and organic debris) ending up in the filter.

Newly hatched brine shrimp must be prepared to be ready at first day of free swimming, since fry have then up-used their energy from the egg. Very ofyen the fry will refuse to eat non-moving food (=crushed dry-food) for several weeks, probaply by instinct.

Mick.Dk is right, you need something that moves to elicit the feeding response in cichlid fry.

I've never kept Angels, but with Apistogramma fry (if you haven't got BBS), you can feed them freeze dried de-capsulated Brine shrimp, together with "Banana Worms" and/or Rotifers (squeezed out of an aquarium sponge).

In a small tank, with shallow water, "Vinegar Eels" are another option.

Vinegar Eels are a really low maintenance culture.

cheers Darrel

 

[agol77]

I had an interesting experience a few years back with the blue angels. I had a group of six, and like you, got excited when I saw two pair off, chase everything else away and start spawning. Nothing happened from the first batch, so I got rid rid of the others to give them space the next time. When the next time to spawn came, I watched closely and saw that they were actually both females, taking turns to lay their vertical lines of eggs.

I obviously never did get any fry from them, but they continued to act like a pair and spawned regularly for a few years, before I moved them on to a friend.

LGBT fish )


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[Madhav]

I breed angels - but agree you will not make money out of it - it is fun, though, if you want to observe parential behaviour in cichlids.
Your angels have obviously paired off and are cleaning a space for laying their eggs (probaply done, by now!). For successfull (natural) breeding, you will need a tank for the pair on their own. Usually first-time breeding pair do not succeed, but often they learn after 2, 3 or 4 times. Some never learn, though.
A huge( = 30-50%) wayerchange ofyen induce breeding behaviour. Temp must ne high (=28-30 celcius) to secure eggs hatch and especially that larvae (=newly hatched) will have high enough metabolism, to get free swimming. From eggs laid to free swimming is usually 5-7 fays, depending a lot of temp.
Newly hatched brine shrimp must be prepared to be ready at first day of free swimming, since fry have then up-used their energy from the egg. Very ofyen the fry will refuse to eat non-moving food (=crushed dry-food) for several weeks, probaply by instinct. Crushed dry-food must then be "sneaked" inbetween live food gradually. Food needs to be given at least 3 times a day - more often if possible - in high doses. Serious waterchanges are essential daily, to secure fresh water, or fry will be permanently damaged(=croocked fins, non-developed gill-caps to mention a few). Good luck and have patience - it is a lot of fun!!!

Hi all, I have a <"large sponge block"> on the intake of the filters, it acts as a browsing surface for any fry , as well as stopping fry (and organic debris) ending up in the filter. Mick.Dk is right, you need something that moves to elicit the feeding response in cichlid fry.

I've never kept Angels, but with Apistogramma fry (if you haven't got BBS), you can feed them freeze dried de-capsulated Brine shrimp, together with "Banana Worms" and/or Rotifers (squeezed out of an aquarium sponge).

In a small tank, with shallow water, "Vinegar Eels" are another option.

Vinegar Eels are a really low maintenance culture.

cheers Darrel

thanks for the comments, Mick.Dk and Darrel,
I have sponge block at inlet.
I will follow your suggestions, I am not trying to make money, just to have fun.
both still cleaning the pipe, not seen any eggs yet.

 

[Madhav]

I had an interesting experience a few years back with the blue angels. I had a group of six, and like you, got excited when I saw two pair off, chase everything else away and start spawning. Nothing happened from the first batch, so I got rid rid of the others to give them space the next time. When the next time to spawn came, I watched closely and saw that they were actually both females, taking turns to lay their vertical lines of eggs.

I obviously never did get any fry from them, but they continued to act like a pair and spawned regularly for a few years, before I moved them on to a friend.

LGBT fish )


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hahaha i think you had a peculiar experience....

 

[Mick.Dk]

Double-female-pair in domestic Ptetophyllum scalare is actually not that rare.........I have had several.
It is not (always) a matter of no males available, since I have had such pairs pairing out, when I do my usual large "teen-age" groups (25 - 50 individuels) to get the best possible breeding-pairs.
I have never had double-male-pairs, though ............

 

[Madhav]

Double-female-pair in domestic Ptetophyllum scalare is actually not that rare.........I have had several.
It is not (always) a matter of no males available, since I have had such pairs pairing out, when I do my usual large "teen-age" groups (25 - 50 individuels) to get the best possible breeding-pairs.
I have never had double-male-pairs, though ............

Then how do these eggs fertilize? Go into someone else's mouth?

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[agol77]

Then how do these eggs fertilize? Go into someone else's mouth?

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They never do get fertilised. They'll eventually turn white with fungus, and the adults will eat them.


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[Madhav]

Out of 8 total 3 pairs formed,
First batch of eggs disappeared by next morning.so I left one pair in the tank and removed all others, this week second batch eggs all turned white, both parents fanning the eggs but too bad...when they all turned white, parents ate all the eggs.

I didnt add any heater or any special breeding arrangements. Temp is around 27-29 °C.

Today I saw them cleaning the pipe again, this time I am prepared to do whatever it takes...

Any suggestions on what to do to let them hatch successfully?

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[Mick.Dk]

I allways try to do a good (=about 50%) waterchange when I see pair cleaning space for laying. This will reduce amount of fungi and bacteria in water, which can attack the eggs and young larvae, killing them off. So chances of eggs hatching gets better this way. High tempetature (= 29 - 32 C. This is not too high for fish, but can be bad for some plants) will hurry up life-processes, making eggs hatch a little faster and larvae get swimming a little faster. This too, will help survival rate, since free-swimming fry is less prone to die. From laying eggs till free swimming fry should be 5 - 7 days, depending on temperature. You must start an Artemia culture to be hatched on very first day the fry become free swimming - this means 3 - 4 days after eggs are laid (Artemia will hatch in 24 - 36 hours at 18- 20 C.....room tempetature).
- and then there is ofcourse the possibility of adding anti-fungal chemistry (methyl blue if I remember correct). I do not remember dose, but this can be found on the net.
I do not use this, since I have selectively bred my fish, to not need it, and I now hatch about 90% of laid eggs without any chemistry. Just waterchanges and high temperature.
Some pairs will not succeed first time, but need to practice a few times, to learn how to raise their fry. And some pairs just never learn, but will eat eggs, larvae or fry every time.

 

[Madhav]

I allways try to do a good (=about 50%) waterchange when I see pair cleaning space for laying. This will reduce amount of fungi and bacteria in water, which can attack the eggs and young larvae, killing them off. So chances of eggs hatching gets better this way. High tempetature (= 29 - 32 C. This is not too high for fish, but can be bad for some plants) will hurry up life-processes, making eggs hatch a little faster and larvae get swimming a little faster. This too, will help survival rate, since free-swimming fry is less prone to die. From laying eggs till free swimming fry should be 5 - 7 days, depending on temperature. You must start an Artemia culture to be hatched on very first day the fry become free swimming - this means 3 - 4 days after eggs are laid (Artemia will hatch in 24 - 36 hours at 18- 20 C.....room tempetature).
- and then there is ofcourse the possibility of adding anti-fungal chemistry (methyl blue if I remember correct). I do not remember dose, but this can be found on the net.
I do not use this, since I have selectively bred my fish, to not need it, and I now hatch about 90% of laid eggs without any chemistry. Just waterchanges and high temperature.
Some pairs will not succeed first time, but need to practice a few times, to learn how to raise their fry. And some pairs just never learn, but will eat eggs, larvae or fry every time.

Thanks for the tip Mick.Dk.
Third batch of eggs laid within two weeks time, is it normal? Read the cycle is 4-6weeks. This time things are a bit better than previous time. Around 10eggs hatched and we can see small little fry. Unfortunately they were all gone overnight along with all the fungus infected eggs.

Saw female carefully picking up good egg among infected eggs and spitting on to the male body several times, I think its trying to stick the egg to his body.

Anyway third time also not successful, is my filter too strong for the fry? Its eheim 2073 fully stuffed with media and filter wool.

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[Mick.Dk]

Happy to hear your breeding pair is improving each time......as long as they get better each time, there is hope they will finally success!
It is not unusual, that a pair that loose their eggs will spawn again within few weeks (sometimes days).Often a male will choose a different female, if unseccessfull several times ( if another female is present, ofcourse).
It is also very common, that even a successfull breeding pair will eat their fry, if the number is very low - and then use the gained energy to begin a new batch.....hopefully getting more offspring, thereby spreading their genes more.
It is unlikely, that your filter is the course of larvae on a leaf disappearing. They are actually attached by a small string of "glue" - re-attaching every time the parents pick them up for cleaning. I am sure parents ate them. When fry become free swimming, though, they are defenitely in danger from a strong filter. A sponge in front of in-let will safeguard the fry. Personally I usually shift to air-stone-flow for the first weeks of free swimming fry. Good waterchanges in short intervals will secure clean water anyway (fry do not care about high visualibility, though, their natural habitat is tea-coloured water. I have raised fry in serious green-water-algae tanks).