let's see....... mix some toad toe with eye of newt, add water and what? ..

[Uslanja]

OK............ I surrender...... AARRRŔGGGHHHH!!!!!

I see the beauty in everyone's tanks! I see the talent displayed by the multitude of aquariasts!! I see thriving plants and fish!!! I see success......... and I want some too!?!?!?

Some plastic plants embedded in vividly coloured flourescent stone, joined by a couple of fake jellyfish floating in the water column on a string........... even then I would hazard to guess that I will achieve a "FAIL"!!!

Oh my but I have so many questions that I feel lower than a newbie on the ladder to success!

Anyone up for a wee bit of frustration while trying to get a few concepts to stick in my old head?

1) What is the life expectancy of a planted tank? I have read where the substrate will eventually become depleted of nutrient and need to be replaced. I have read in several searches that 12 months is aproximately the life of aquarium subsoil. What? Soil nutrient can not be replaced? I wish to build a biotope and keep it going for the life of the fish, which I hope would be several years and even longer if reproduction should occur.

2) Adding fertilizer to the substrate and/or water column? I have read scenarios where the ppm of nutrient supplied for the plants exceeds the parameters recommended for fish and inverts. I am not undrstanding this concept. I certainly do not wish to stress the tank inhabitants so how does one dose for plants and not harm the fish, shrimp, snails or what have you? I had a quick exchange with Tom Barr a while back and like the sounds of EI............... but what about the inhabitants need for nutrient reduced parameters?

3) So hobby test kits are inconsistent and inaccurate......... listen to what the plants tell you???......Really? After sitting for several hours with my good ear held firmly to the aquarium glass and receiving a "crick in my neck"...... I have not heard a word...... only some bubbling!

Can anyone help point me in the right direction? Can fauna thrive in the planted tank or do they just complete the scene?

(I hope my attempt at levity is not taken out of context; the written word can convey several different intents and I only wish to cause a smile and a laugh)

 

[KipperSarnie]

Welcome
You omitted "Wing of Bat" A must for new set ups!

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi Dave/Tracy
I had very good success with Seachem Substrates!
http://www.seachem.com/substrates.php

There is 2 types,Gravel and Sand which I have used both, ......there are different colours to chose from!
This is a hard substrate, a fracted stable porous clay gravel....so doesn't compact as much.....the life time of this substrate could be indefinite as long as you have some sort of Fertilizing regime!
In my opinion!
I had this substrate in a 3 feet aquarium for at least 5 years....plants where Cryptocorynes/Sagittarius Subulata which did very well when established!
No Co2 injection or Liquid Carbon was added.
I usually did a water change 50% every few weeks, and a light substrate clean!
Over the years I had various types of fish....Barbs, Corys,Tetras which all did well....even spawning frequently!
Lighting was a T8 Single light bulb....it was a few years back!
I didn't even have a external filter.....the bog standard internal was used!
If your prepared to wait a few months this could be what your looking for if you use slow easy to grow plants!
It is a tad expensive....but most Planted Substrates are these days
Cheers
hoggie

 

[Uslanja]

Hi KipperSarnie............. that's it! The secret ingredient that has been alluding me! So many beautiful, vibrant, healthy looking tanks and my success has been only with Christmas Moss......... so far. A few sprigs of Java Fern appear to be doing okay, holding their own. Dwarf Sagittaria subulata seemed to have settled in and started to grow a bit, but now it just seems to be disappearing. To many other plants to mention just failed and apeared to be disintegrating or just disappearing so they were removed. Everything that I have tried so far has been catagorized as "easy" to grow. Even "duck weed" just disappears. (Maybe I need to add a duck?)

I have killed more than 50 neocardinia shrimp of various types over the past year with some parameters to high for them and aparently of no significance to the plants, ie: no-3 (nitrate) @ 40 ppm. Dead and dying plants as well as shrimp. Are inverts a fail in a planted tank?

 

[Uslanja]

Hi Hoggie! (Is your handle from the famous American sandwich?)

Seachem Flourite Brown is in our 20 Long and that is our "death tank". We do not have a soil substrate beneath the flourite. Is soil more essential than water column fertilizing? We are fighting parameters between plants and inverts. If test kits are not useful then how do we determine what is in excess, missing or otherwise out of balance? Are we trying to mix incompatible plants and animals?

This site looks GREAT and so much information! Might be time time to time to try and forget what I think I know and start again!

 

[G H Nelson]

Have a read at this nice Low tech Aquascape from George Farmer.
https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/my-best-low-tech-scape-so-far.38709/

 

[Uslanja]

Maybe we didn't put enough plants in from the start? Looked like we had planted more than would reasonably grow, but maybe not?

 

[Uslanja]

Oh I know!!! Absolutely stunning!! So many informative articles written by talented and learned folks. So many beautiful tank photographs. I am humbled in this crowd!

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi Hoggie! (Is your handle from the famous American sandwich?)

No Buddy
Hi Dave
Plants can grow without substrate....but you would need to use a Hi Tec Co2/Fertilizing regime!.....with plenty of light!
Lighting can cause all sorts of problems if you use too much light!
You don't need a Soil based substrate below the Seachem Brown!
Purchase the cheapest fastest growing plants available....plant at least 50% of the aquarium!
Purchase some floaters Amazon Frogbit is a good indicator of that the Tank is maturing or there is problems!
How long has the 20 long been set-up?
What's your fertilizing water change regime?
What lighting are you using over which Photoperiod?
What's the temperature, are you using any Co2/Liquid Carbon!
Also what filtration are you using?
Cheers
hoggie

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What is the life expectancy of a planted tank? I have read where the substrate will eventually become depleted of nutrient and need to be replaced. I have read in several searches that 12 months is aproximately the life of aquarium subsoil. What? Soil nutrient can not be replaced? I wish to build a biotope and keep it going for the life of the fish, which I hope would be several years and even longer if reproduction should occur.

No, the life span of the aquarium is potentially definitely decades, and you never actually need to replace the substrate, it will change over time, and no longer be "active", but it can still provide a healthy environment for growing plants. If you have a look at <"Aquarium Biofiltration"> it documents the processes that will occur over <"time in the substrate">.

Adding fertilizer to the substrate and/or water column? I have read scenarios where the ppm of nutrient supplied for the plants exceeds the parameters recommended for fish and inverts. I am not undrstanding this concept. I certainly do not wish to stress the tank inhabitants so how does one dose for plants and not harm the fish, shrimp, snails or what have you? I had a quick exchange with Tom Barr a while back and like the sounds of EI............... but what about the inhabitants need for nutrient reduced parameters?

You don't have to use full EI, a lot of people use somewhere in between 1/10 and 1/3 of EI dosing. You also have to take into account that when people <"talk about toxic levels of nitrate"> (NO3-) they are really using nitrate as a proxy for the smoking gum of previous high levels of ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-). In planted tanks levels of nutrients, like nitrate fall over time, rather than accumulating. Most popular literature on water chemistry grossly under-estimates the positive effects of plants on water chemistry.

So hobby test kits are inconsistent and inaccurate......... listen to what the plants tell you???......Really? After sitting for several hours with my good ear held firmly to the aquarium glass and receiving a "crick in my neck"...... I have not heard a word...... only some bubbling!

You have to listen to the right plants, the non-bubbly ones.
From the earlier linked thread:

Because of the difficulties in the accurate and repeatable measurement of many nutrients, I use the growth and colour of a floating plant as an indicator of nutrient level, and I called this the <"Duckweed Index">.

The rationale was that photosynthesis is driven by available light (<"PAR">), and after light by CO2 availability. Mineral nutrients are required in smaller amounts, with three macro-nutrients (NPK) and about 10x as much nitrogen and potassium (K) needed as phosphorus (P). All the other nutrients are needed in lesser amounts.

Carbon dioxide availability isn't a problem for terrestrial plants (they have access to 400ppm CO2), but submerged plants are CO2 limited. You can use a floating plant to estimate nutrient levels because they have access to atmospheric CO2 levels and they are plants that are naturally adapted to utilise high light intensity.

Honestly the "Duckweed Index" is a KISS solution to feeding your plants.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So many beautiful, vibrant, healthy looking tanks and my success has been only with Christmas Moss......... so far. A few sprigs of Java Fern appear to be doing okay, holding their own.

They are both good low tech plants. A thought strikes me that they are plants that will survive in very low light, with trace nutrients.

How long has the 20 long been set-up?
What's your fertilizing water change regime?
What lighting are you using over which Photoperiod?
What's the temperature, are you using any Co2/Liquid Carbon!
Also what filtration are you using?

Hoggie is right, something doesn't quite add up. Could we have the kit list from the tank? and/or a picture? and what filter media do you have in your filter? Particularly do you have any chemical media?, like "Phosban" etc.

Last one, is your tap water very hard? and what did the plants look like before they died? Were the new leaves very pale?

cheers Darrel

 

[G H Nelson]

Here is Blyxa sp japonica...grown outwith substrate on the surface of a High Tec tank with good fertilization and High lighting!
So as you see its possible!
I have also grown Crypts outwith gravel/soil/substrate!

hoggie

 

[George Kulangara]

Hi, I've had a planted set up for a year now. The main ingredient you need to have is patience because from my experience, you have some weeks where the tank looks amazing and others where it doesn't look so great. Just keep at it and you'll get there. Unless of course you have a lot of time or have a bunch of staff like in the ADA set ups.

As far as longevity, if you dose with fertilisers and have an appropriate bioload from your fish, I don't see why the soil can't last a good 3-4 years. I've had my tank set up for a year and the plants are still thriving. I personally don't mess with the EI system. I'm using the aquasoil from ADA and some root tabs for my substrate. I dose liquid carbon dioxide. Pressurised CO2 is ideal but I've had good results using liquid CO2. Then I add a weekly dose of a fertiliser after a water change.

The best thing to do to get a setup you like is practise. Before I started using live plants, I used to just have rock work and wood in the tank. What I did was strip down the tank every three months and try to make a new scape. Practise makes perfect and your technique will get refined over time.

Good luck and keep your sleeves wet!

George


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Uslanja]

Hi all! And, thank you for the responce as well as the info and links. I will try and answer the above asked questions as well as get some photos up.

The 20 Long (75.6 litres) has been set up now for 13 months.

Water change is once per week at 30% of the estimated actual water volume. A TDS of 200 is our target. We are on well water obtained at a depth of 47 feet in an area of limestone bedrock. The water is particulate filtered to 1 micron, water softened, sterilized via UV then run through an activated carbon block. After this it is run through a Thin Membrane RO Filter before a final run through a second activated carbon block. At this point it is declared as ready to use. The final product at the tap has a PH of 5.5 with a TDS reading of 25.

Filtration is in the form of an Aquaclear 110 HOB. We run the coarse sponge block and the remainder of the filter is filled as much as possible with Fluval ceramic bio filter media. The sponge media gets a light shaking in change water once every 6 months. A small amount of particulate has been present however it appears to be of an insignificant amount that shakes out of the sponge. The sponge has never been "washed/rinsed" clean since the aquarium start. A sponge pre-filter is used on the HOB inlet tube and used as the main particulate filter. The pre-filter sponge is rinsed completely clean every water change, once per week.

Fertilizing had been completed by utilizing some of the Seachem product line. Namely the Flourish; nitrogen, potasium, phosphorus and trace. Dosage rate now is at approximately 10% of the recommended initial rate but only used once per month. Prior doseing was approximately 10% of the recommended initial dose, but weekly. (The doseing schedule was reduced in frequency due to the loss of neocardinia shrimp. However, the shrimp were added several weeks after the setup and the plants were already in and the tank was being dosed at that time. Several attempts to introduce shrimp failed and were eventually given up on. I am suspecting the dosing ingredients but I have no way to difinitively test if that is in fact a correct assumption or not.

Lighting. This is where a photo would help in understanding my scaping. The entire front of the tank from end to end is under a CurrentUSA Planted Plus fixture, 10 Watt 6700K, and this is most certainly a "Low Level Light". The second light is on a desk style swing fixture that holds a Feit Electric 20 Watt LED 5000K PAR 30 Flood Light. This light in conjuction with the CURRENT USA light covers half of the aquarium. (I had thought that the flood light was too strong and so it was covered with a double layer of black fiberglass window screen/mesh. This seemed to help the remaining plants some what. The screening is still in place.) the Current USA light is manually activated around 04:30 and turned off around 21:00. The swing arm/floodlight will operate on a timer and therefore is set to turn on at 13:30 and turn off at 20:30. I will use the 460 nano meter "moon" light on the CurrentUSA light as the mood strikes me and so approximately 3 or 4 nights per week it will run all night. This "moon" light is run in conjunction with the 6700K daylight every day.

We do not use a CO2 system. We do not use an aerator. There is significant and fairly strong surface agitation from the HOB at the low light end. (Again, a photo would help) The HOB pump impeller has been modified to reduce the flow output. Actual output is unknown but the plants at the opposite end of the tank move in the current ever so slightly.

I will try to get photos up as quickly as possible. Hopefully tomorrow evening after work......... maybe I should call in sick? Aquarium fever, or something like that!

Thank you again for everyone's time in writing and helping us out!

 

[roadmaster]

I might refrain from running lighting all night no matter moonlight's,, or other.
Might would try cherry shrimp that are fairly tough and many have them in tank's with Full EI and CO2 injection.(way more nutrient's added to these)
10% of suggested ranges for the nutrient's is just that. Would dose as direction's call for.Your plant's may need more than you are providing from nutrient standpoint.
20 gal long would not be too expensive to use liquid carbon for plants from product such as Seachem's Excel.
I also run NON CO2 injection but noted slight improvement's in growth/health with addition of the liquid carbon.(daily to every other day)
Would have light's on for straight eight hour photoperiod with possible exception of hour or two of night time viewing via the moonlight feature on the current satellite fixture, or the flood light alone.(Maybe once or twice a week?)
Do not believe the small amount of copper that may be in the trace to have created an issue lest those who dose much more via Estimative index report such.
will assume no med's or algaecides have been used recently,and that change water is prepared ahead of time to prevent sudden changes in water chemistry at water change time.
Nothing good ever came from me practicing nutrient limitation even with moderate light from plant health /growth observation's I have seen.
I searched out what daily Estimative index suggest's for full on CO2 injection and much higher lighting than I run on my size tank and I add this much or more once a week in my own NON CO2 injected low tech affair's.
The trace I use CSM+B does contain copper but not enough to harm invert's I keep (cherry shrimp) judging by they're number's.
I do think some photo's might help those more experienced than myself.
I am just thinking out loud,and hope something might help.
Suffered for embarrassingly long time trying to grow the aquatic weed's
With some abandoned concept's I had and folk's here as well as a few other plant forum's, I am able to see much better result's for my $$ /effort's.

 

[George Kulangara]

Thanks for all the information, it's helping to build a better picture of your situation. I agree with roadmaster, there should be no problem with fertiliser dosing and cherry shrimps. Liquid co2 is great if you don't want to invest in a pressurised system. Heck, I'm using liquid co2 in a 75 gallon tank!

Along with the pictures, could you list all the plants you've tried to grow in the tank?




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[Konsa]

Hi
Your tank specs seems good .Aquarium fert dosing for a low tech(1/10 to 1/3 of EI ) will have little impact on shrimps .The recommended dosages on branded ferts are also very lean to cause trouble.I think U overdoing your water.Neocardina are medium hard water shrimp.
PH 5.5 and TDS 25 is very low for Neocardina shrimp.U are striping the water of all minerals they need.
Have kept Neocardina shrimp in my hi tech tanks with full EI and high CO2 levels with no trouble.
Have U tried some more soft water sp like Cristal reds for example.U can try to do two 10% water changes instead of one 30% one.
Regards Konsa

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
The filtration sounds fine, I'm not sure about the lighting, I'm having some difficulties in visualizing exactly how it looks.

At this point it is declared as ready to use. The final product at the tap has a PH of 5.5 with a TDS reading of 25.

OK. How do you re-mineralise to get to 200ppm TDS? Do you add some well water?

Flourish; nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus and trace

10% of suggested ranges for the nutrient's is just that. Would dose as direction's call for.Your plant's may need more than you are providing from nutrient standpoint.

That is useful, I agree with @roadmaster you could have all sorts of deficiencies, but dependent a <"little bit on geology">, and whether you cut the RO with well water, it is quite likely we are in the areas of magnesium (Mg) or iron (Fe) deficiency.

They both cause chlorosis of the plant leaves, but magnesium is mobile within the plant and iron isn't, so magnesium deficiencies show in the older leaves, and iron deficiencies in the younger leaves.

This is iron deficiency (from <"What do my plants need?">).

Magnesium deficiency is easily rectifiable with the addition of a small amount of "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O ~ 10% Mg). You can get it from a pharmacist etc. and you only need about 5ppm Mg. You should get pretty instant greening with magnesium, but with iron it will only be any new leaves that are greener. You should be OK with FeEDTA as your iron source.

Several attempts to introduce shrimp failed and were eventually given up on.

Neocardina are medium hard water shrimp.

I agree with @Konsa, Cherry shrimps do better in hard water. I lost mine one winter after I fed too many of them to the Apistogrammas and then failed to notice that the TDS in their tanks had fallen to about 50ppm (I use rain-water, but the local geology is all limestone and the rain is normally carbonate buffered to some degree).

cheers Darrel

 

[Uslanja]

Thanks again everyone........ just checking in quickly before I head out to participate in that total illogical human activity called work. To remineralize my change water I was using "Salty Shrimp - Shrimp mineral GH/KH Plus" but since the shrimp have died I have revereted to using a well water mix in the RO water. Because we are on limestone I believe there is sufficient calcium levels. I had thought of increasing the dosing amounts, but again, because of the shrimp and traces of copper in the additives I kept the dosing ratio low. Lighting black out at night is easy enough to do.

My observations on very light green colouring on new growth did have me thinking about adding magnesium via Epson Salt or even iron (Fe) suplement but I hesitate to just start adding to the water chemistry without some type of testing to confirm my ideas. One of the biggest challanges for myself is the lack of testing methods (or I just have not learned what those methods are) in determining what adjustments to make.

I will work at getting some photos up when I return from work later today. Time differential might mean tomorrow for everyone.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but since the shrimp have died I have reverted to using a well water mix in the RO water. Because we are on limestone I believe there is sufficient calcium levels.

OK, I think that probably covers any calcium and hardness issues with the shrimps.

Your well water may contain some magnesium, or it may not, dependent on the nature of the basin (either ocean or epicratonic sea) it was laid down in.

My observations on very light green colouring on new growth did have me thinking about adding magnesium via Epson Salt or even iron (Fe) supplement

Because the pale growth is the new growth that makes iron (Fe) a distinct possibility.

If the leaves are still pale after you've added a larger dose of nitrogen, potassium and magnesium (these are all mobile within the plant, and will cause pretty much instant greening) then iron deficiency is, by far, the most likely reason.

but I hesitate to just start adding to the water chemistry without some type of testing to confirm my ideas. One of the biggest challenges for myself is the lack of testing methods (or I just have not learned what those methods are) in determining what adjustments to make.

When I originally started <"looking at water chemistry in aquariums">, I expected to find kits, meters and techniques that would fulfill the criteria of producing accurate and reproduce-able results. After a while it became obvious that this was going to be problematic.

I'm not saying that <"you can't get accurate results from water testing">, you can, but there are certain proviso's.

I started using the "duckweed index" because it is difficult to get accurate parameters for a lot of nutrients without some very expensive kit.

I had a datum to compare the test kit results to, because I work in a facility with an analytical lab. and the staff who use Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometers, HPLC etc every day, and in the UK, you can request water quality data for your domestic water data, from your water supplier.

Problems with test kits are partially to do with interference by other ions, and partially to do with the fact that often ratios of ions are important (particularly for micro-elements), rather than absolute numbers. Paradoxically water testing can be easier in sea water because we have a known number of interfering (chloride Cl- etc.) ions.

cheers Darrel