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Eco-Complete or ADA Soil

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From my experience so far Amazonia is difficult to manage.
Well, there may be issues with individual batches, and I recall you have had some difficulty in one or more of your tanks, which you attributed to Amazonia, but I don't think think it can be said that unilaterally, Amazonia is problematic. There are just too many successful tanks out there using Amazonia to bash it without further evidence. I've never had a problem with Amazonia. George Farmer, Dan Crawford, Viktorlantos, just to name a few, consistently turn out brilliant aquascapes using Amazonia and it's my favorite substrate, except for the price! :arghh:

I also don't think that it can be demonstrated that Amazonia has any effect on CO2 dissolution. There are thousands of tanks which suffer poor CO2. In fact, poor CO2 is the single biggest cause of the demise of most unsuccessful tanks, regardless of substrate choice. It would be difficult to imagine, by what mechanism this substrate could reduce the CO2 concentration level of the water column. The CO2 concentration level can only be a function of pressure, temperature and NaCl concentration. Clearly, pressure and temperature are not affected by Amazonia, so if it can be shown that the NaCl level of the water is significantly affected by Amazonia, then it would be believable, however, the level of NaCl sufficient to affect CO2 dissolution would negatively affect the health of freshwater fish, and this would be consistently observable.

As you've mentioned:
CO2 is not related to substrates much if at all. CO2 have no relevance to the media in which plants can be planted to grow.
Which is a valid statement. However, it should be noted that organic substrates such as soil and leaf litter, do generate CO2 because of the bacterial metabolism facilitated by the high levels of carbohydrates found in soil. Amazonia attempts to replicate this phenomenon by infusing peat or similar carbohydrates sources on the baked surface of the pellets. Plants that are capable of CO2 uptake from their roots can take advantage of this mechanism. So actually, there is some relevance in of CO2 in the sediment, but it depends on the sediment type, the preparation of the sediment, and on the type of plant.

I think Andy D's point was that when plants are grown in a terrestrial format, such as in the nursery, the substrate used, such as stone wool, has less relevance because the leaves have access to atmospheric CO2 and that nutrition can be applied either via foliar spray or by application of the nutrient to the wool.

So any info on TMC?
It is reported that TMC Nutrisoil is a similar in construction and formula to Amazonia, but no details have been made available.

I agree that the high ammonia content of enriched substrates such as Amazonia is problematic, but this can easily be averted by simply letting the sediment sit moistened for a month in a bucket, or by baking it in a over for a few hours at over 200 deg.C. This will mineralized the ammonia into NO3.

Cheers
 
Well, there may be issues with individual batches, and I recall you have had some difficulty in one or more of your tanks, which you attributed to Amazonia, but I don't think think it can be said that unilaterally, Amazonia is problematic. There are just too many successful tanks out there using Amazonia to bash it without further evidence. I've never had a problem with Amazonia. George Farmer, Dan Crawford, Viktorlantos, just to name a few, consistently turn out brilliant aquascapes using Amazonia and it's my favorite substrate, except for the price! :arghh:
I actually had difficulties only in my last scape. That's why I named it "Rapture in me" because it nearly destroyed my nervous system.
IAPLC2011- 280, IAPLC 2012 - 69 and number of others that were never published are my tanks with Amazonia. Immaculate plants in every way. Now my tank looks a lot better than my last scape that I have discussed with you (and you couldn't offer any explanation), but still not as good as I use to have scapes before 2012.

Now to the evidence room.

HC on the left in Amazonia. HC on the right in compost.
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Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis on the left in Amzonia, on the right in compost.
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Eleocharis Parvula on the left no substrate at all, only tab water and remains of in vitro gel. On the right in Amazonia.

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Hemianthus Cuba from my current scape hooked on the rocks with stone wool. No substrate. Please point to another example of HC planted in any tank with Amazonia after 2012 that looks any near as good.
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All plants were planted one and a half month ago by me in my hydroponics.

HOW IS THIS EVIDENCE?

I can keep going like this forever, but it's meaningless.
What bugs me is what would it take for people like you to consider that mere mortals such as my self also have enough brains to judge if a product is a good one or bad one?
And would you ever stop insulting my intelligence with the smart academic talk? After all I have some insignificant 30 years in this hobby and as any one can see from the pictures above I CAN GROW PLANTS no worse than you or anyone else.

I apologise if I was rude in any way, but honestly dismissing mine and the plead of many other in this hobby as a mere CO2 mistake is bit over the edge. People are not that stupid, at least not all of them.
 
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Looking at your pics looks like you have ammonia burn in your emersed setup, but thats more science
Whats hard to manage? ammonia?
Do regular water change to keep it in check and do the same in your emersed setups too.
I don't use it because it cost far too much for baked dirt with added ei salts when a bag of pond soil or compost will do the job. if you have the money and you want to why not use amazonia but be prepared to deal with ammonia

I'm quite surprised by this
I've never had a problem with Amazonia. George Farmer, Dan Crawford, Viktorlantos, just to name a few, consistently turn out brilliant aquascapes using Amazonia and it's my favorite substrate
Considering you can grow plants in sand if you dose the water column properly.
Even though i don't fully understand the science i have a much better idea than a year ago, or am i just plugging myself into Clive's version of the matrix and the next generation of myths
 
Looking at your pics looks like you have ammonia burn in your emersed setup, but thats more science
Whats hard to manage? ammonia?
Do regular water change to keep it in check and do the same in your emersed setups too.
I don't use it because it cost far too much for baked dirt with added ei salts when a bag of pond soil or compost will do the job. if you have the money and you want to why not use amazonia but be prepared to deal with ammonia

I'm quite surprised by this

Considering you can grow plants in sand if you dose the water column properly.
Even though i don't fully understand the science i have a much better idea than a year ago, or am i just plugging myself into Clive's version of the matrix and the next generation of myths
Those plants are grown in hydroponics, not in aquarium, not under water. So the ammonia burn inhere s a urban legend, nothing more, especially considering that according to ADA this newer Amazonia substrate have actually reduced levels of Nitrogen by half. In the old Amazonia I never had "ammonia burns" not once, emersed or submersed.
There are some stem plants that manage to grow emersed, but as soon as they get under water the CO2 deficiency signs come to live. The ammonia myth is busted.

Pal as I said (if you bothered to read) I am in this hobby for over 30 years and the last advise anyone can give me is about water changes.

I also use only RO water with salt supplements, so if anyone want to look for gremlins there give it up. I'v killed them all.

I would like to have a better explanation if anyone can offer any, not advice on basic plant maintenance for beginners.
 
30 years in the game and you dont like being wrong, i understand, but i haven't seen you bust any gremlins yet pal, just a couple of pics and a load of ranting but no explanation. I know who's advice i'd rather take and it wouldnt be be from the rude, angry man in the corner. If theres a co2 deficiency when you flood the tank your not adding enough co2, nothing to do with substrate more basic advice add more co2 or reduce light
But you dont appear to want advice, just an argument
 
Not read all these comments and can't say I want dragging into the huge debate I agree with big clown myself and him have had fantastic results with our set ups my most successfull being a huge amount of john innes potting compost capped with grey sand lots of light and buckets of co2 my biggest problem is keeping the jungle under control. Oh and Andy your right those stems have grown 10 mm per day since we trimmed them so much so I've set a time lapse up today while I'm out and about should be interesting
 
Interesting. if u grow two same plants dry, both with the same amount of atmospheric co2 available, u get two totally different results and only obvious difference is a substrate why one should not take it as an information to consider?! This is as I take it. cheers Aquadream for sharing ;)

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk
 
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Interesting. if u grow two same plants dry, both with the same amount of atmospheric co2 available, u get two totally different results and only obvious difference is a substrate why one should not take it as an information to consider?! This is as I take it. cheers Aquadream for sharing ;)

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk
You are welcome. Evidently ADA fun boys don't think this way.
 
30 years in the game and you dont like being wrong, i understand, but i haven't seen you bust any gremlins yet pal, just a couple of pics and a load of ranting but no explanation. I know who's advice i'd rather take and it wouldnt be be from the rude, angry man in the corner. If theres a co2 deficiency when you flood the tank your not adding enough co2, nothing to do with substrate more basic advice add more co2 or reduce light
But you dont appear to want advice, just an argument
Now since you appear to miss the point let me spell it for you.
One pot is perfect, the other is crap. Both in the same environment. Now what does water changes have anything to do with this fact when in both pots the same plant is propagated.
Or would you like to have the pictures much bigger so you can see better what the story is all about?

As for the aquarium. Clear spelling again.
CO2 checker is always pure yellow. CO2 never stops. Water is changed every other day 50% for more than a month by now only after the lights go off.
TDS is 200 or less, Cond. bellow 300, Salts does not exceed 150 ever. Carbonate hardness increase from 1 to 3dKh makes things worse, so it is kept 1dKh or less.
I also have all of the professional water tests that you very likely haven't even hear off yet and everything measures within the normal limits for a planted tank. That includes - K, Na, S, Mg, Mn, NO3, PO4, Ca, Mg, Fe etc. etc etc.
For my 30 years of experience (that seem to mean nothing to you) I have learned much more than the beginners theory about water changes.
I have quite solid background in basic water chemistry and I am a very methodical person.

Now perhaps you understand why I am so pissed when you kindly advise me to do water changes. Please don't!

The only real help anyone can offer is laboratory tests of Amazonia. Something that I can not get done in Bulgaria.[DOUBLEPOST=1397412774][/DOUBLEPOST]
Aquadream. I'm not sure what kind of advice you want. People are taking the time to write out responses to try and help you with your issues. You don't want to hear it.

How smart of you. I'm glad you are here to tell me these things. Hell, what would I have done if you weren't around?
 
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If anyone wants to flush an angry man with more wisdom, please go elsewhere for that.
If anyone can offer any scientific explanation of why could this be happening (cut the CO2, water changes and frets basic crap) then I am open for suggestions, because I still have a pile of this substrate in my storage and intend to use it.
If anyone believes that I am here to bash the incredible ADA company, this is certainly not my purpose, regardless they never answered any e-mails for over a year now.

And if anyone wants to point fingers, please take a look at the pictures first.[DOUBLEPOST=1397413403][/DOUBLEPOST]
Not read all these comments and can't say I want dragging into the huge debate I agree with big clown myself and him have had fantastic results with our set ups my most successfull being a huge amount of john innes potting compost capped with grey sand lots of light and buckets of co2 my biggest problem is keeping the jungle under control. Oh and Andy your right those stems have grown 10 mm per day since we trimmed them so much so I've set a time lapse up today while I'm out and about should be interesting
Well is it not just the same in my report pictures. Compost doing unbelievable job?
 
The only real help anyone can offer is laboratory tests of Amazonia. Something that I can not get done in Bulgaria.

Why not? Are you telling me that there is nowhere in the whole of Bulgaria that this can be done?

What do you think is wrong with the substrate? What does it need to be tested for? How are any mere mortals expected to help when you have this superior 30 years experience?

I can understand you are frustrated but being aggressive and rude to people is not the best way to get help. How do you expect anyone with the facility to test the product to help you when you act in such a terrible manner?

My Brother-in-law is a chemist and has access to a lab. Would I ask him to help you? Absolutely not!

:)
 
I might read the posts more closely if they weren't full of obscenities, we'll be comparing parts of anatomy next:lol:
I wasn't advising you to change water in your tank but your emersed setup, so evidently your not reading properly either. Are you sure its not ammonia burn in your emersed setup? amazonia is known to release ammonia, now read carefully because I'm not talking about a flooded tank. in a tank you change the water, you might not do this in an emersed setup and this can lead to nutrient burn. I've seen a few journals where this has happened. It usually results in the tank getting flooded and then the hc recovers without showing any signs of deficiency
For a man that spends so much money on test kits I'm quite surprised you understand very little science
George farmer and other top scapers don't have co2 deficiency with amazonia. so why do you? So you see you still haven't busted any gremlins with regard to co2 uptake in your tank and amazonia. just that you had a bad do with it in your tank
Maybe you did get a bad batch, some people had problems but most managed to sort it.
How about next time you grow hc emersed in amazonia you could give one tray a quick rinse daily to see if it helps with the melting compared the the other, then you will know if its a nutrient burn or not. If you want a different expert opinion perhaps you should pm tom barr or darrel and ask them about your particular scenario
 
Increased nutrients will surely drive the the need for increased co2 AT unlimited light levels, maybe this is the issue with the Amazonia you have, ahem :rolleyes: no I'm not taking the piss or trying to "flush an angry man with more wisdom", you seem to be intent on proving Amazonia is a bad substrate, IMHO I don't think such a thing exists, substrate is substrate, is a thing that holds plants in the ground, limit light and you'll limit the need for co2, as we all know excess ferts don't cause algae, but if your substrate is driving the need for co2 your option is to match it with co2 or lower the light intensity negating the need to kill your livestock, I'm not a big fan of these threads that turn into product or member bashing threads, it's uncalled for :) if you really don't want your Amazonia stockpile I'll happily take it off your hands for postage :) pm me if interested lol, yep buddy I'm now taking the piss :woot:
 
Not wanting to be dragged into the debate yet I've been quoted so heres my opinion not tried Amazonia it's out of my price range I choose to invest in frequent water changes good co2 and plenty of light and a cheap potting compost works great couldn't be happier so not likely to invest in expensive substrates I have a tank that I did with fluval stratum the most money I've ever spent on substrate and I hate it difficult to plant in I would cap it off with sand if I could be sure it wouldn't work its way to the top again. So sand and compost it is for me I would try this Amazonia but some one would have to give me the stuff I just can't see the money in it .
 
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