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Leaves melting

A

Antipofish

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Well, having upped my CO2 and now not getting all that brown algae on my leaves, AND seeing increased growth, I now have another issue to contend with. Some of the leaves (and the whole stem they are on) are melting.

I bought some Hygrophila Araguaia from P@H the other day and it immediately started melting. All the way down to the root practically !! And I have noticed some of the older leaves on my Stauro (which is growing nicely) have started doing the same.

Any ideas ?
 
Hi Chris,
sounds like c02 again, your cylinder isnt running out is it and giving fluctuations?
Araguaia could be transition, but they do sound c02 related. If only fish could swim in air, then we could do away with water and c02 would no longer be an issue!!!
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
I agree with Ady mate. Does still sound like a Co2 issue.
Pretty much every time I`ve suffered melt it`s been down to poor Co2. Is flow good to that area of your tank. Is Co2 reaching there? I found a chart on another forum that gives quite a usefull guide to deficencies, maybe worth a look.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/113834-nutrient-deficiency-chart.html

If only fish could swim in air, then we could do away with water and c02 would no longer be an issue!!!
Amen to that. :lol: :lol:
 
Quetzalcoatl said:
I agree with Ady mate. Does still sound like a Co2 issue.
Pretty much every time I`ve suffered melt it`s been down to poor Co2. Is flow good to that area of your tank. Is Co2 reaching there? I found a chart on another forum that gives quite a usefull guide to deficencies, maybe worth a look.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/113834-nutrient-deficiency-chart.html

If only fish could swim in air, then we could do away with water and c02 would no longer be an issue!!!
Amen to that. :lol: :lol:

Have tracked the link down further, looking for my own solution.

Geoff
 
Flow is good, CO2 is lime green. I have to say, I am a knats whisker away from selling my CO2 stuff, ripping the plants out and enjoying the bloody fish tank I bought in the first place.
 
Try not to lose you cool Chris, you will get there in the end. What is the flow like around the affected plants, is co2 mist getting all around the tank?
 
Matty1983 said:
Try not to lose you cool Chris, you will get there in the end. What is the flow like around the affected plants, is co2 mist getting all around the tank?

Hi mate. CO2 seems to be getting everywhere. I have a full length spraybar along the backwall powered by an Eheim 2078 on a tank that is only 80cm x 45cm x 50cm. Flow is going forward, hitting the front glass and being deflected down. All plants are showing movement at all levels. I am not sure my diffuser is that good because i don't seem to observe the levels of mist that others talk about . I think I may need to work on that. But the CO2 is going in faster than you can count bubbles. I think I will have to check for leaks. I recently swapped to a Lunapet regulator and perhaps it is that. :( But I am getting fed up with it. The whole ecosystem seems to be unbelievably fragile.
 
Relax chris, nobody said it would be easy!! Im 18 months in to high tech and still have issues and still expect to have some in another 18 months. If it was easy it would be boring.
For every problem you have you learn something new, just dont forget what it is you learnt :lol:
 
OK. I am dosing 7ml TPN+ daily. Is this enough ? OR am I under dosing in the light of being "highish tech" ? Lighting is quite low. 2 x 24w T5 with one of the bulbs being pretty dim. Photo period only 6 hours. CO2 on 2 hours prior and 1 hours before lights out.

AND does anyone know what a FE weighs full and empty ? It should be pretty full I think.
 
Chris, have you considered EI dosing for your tank? It should say on the fire extinguisher how much it should way full and empty.
 
spyder said:
Matty1983 said:
Chris, have you considered EI dosing for your tank?

I was about to ask the same thing. At least you could rule ferts out of any equations. :thumbup:

The tips of my Vesuvius are always melting. Stick with it, your not far away from getting what you want. ;)

Cheers.

SO, why is EI dosing able to rule out lack of ferts more so than measured TPN+ ? I will be honest, I don't really understand the two methods and why they are different.
 
I don't know about TPN+ so I won't pretend too.

With EI you are aiming to provide a little more than what the tanks uptake rates would typically be. Therefore, in most cases, EI dosing will provide more than enough so it leaves you 1 less thing to worry about.
 
spyder said:
I don't know about TPN+ so I won't pretend too.

With EI you are aiming to provide a little more than what the tanks uptake rates would typically be. Therefore, in most cases, EI dosing will provide more than enough so it leaves you 1 less thing to worry about.

Can I not achieve that by overdosing TPN+ also ? I know EI is cheaper and have been thinking about swapping. How do you calculate what the uptake rate would be for any given tank ?
 
http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm

It's all in there. I'll be honest, I don't understand all the numbers. I can multiply 3/16 tsp by 12 though. ;)


he original EI experiments followed this line of reasoning and light was continually added to drive higher and higher uptake rates. At some point, the physical limitations of uptake were reached such that adding more light no longer produced higher uptake rates or higher growth rates. This limit was on the order of 5-6 watts per gallon (wpg) so that for a 20 Gallon tank, adding more than about 100-120 watts T5 failed to produce increased growth rates. The value 5-6 wpg can be considered Unlimited lighting because the plant can no longer make use of lighting intensity higher than this value. At this unlimited lighting we can then measure the uptake rates of the various nutrients. Since adding more light did not result in any higher uptake of these nutrients, the uptake rates measured under the unlimited lighting can also be considered to be unlimited nutrient uptake. On a weekly basis, these measurements were recorded to be the approximate values:

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

These numbers tell us that if we can provide the weekly ppm listed next to each nutrient then we will be providing the maximum nutrients that the plants can eat, even if that tank (any size) is illuminated by 5-6 WPG. Few people have a 5 wpg tank and as we saw, a lower lighting level creates a lower uptake demand so if we had a tank lit by only 2 wpg it would consume less than the numbers above. The problem is that we are not sure how much less because the tests were not done for every possible lighting level. The good news is that it does not matter. If the tank has lower lighting than 5 wpg then it simply means that there is a greater margin of error and less chance of consuming more that we are dosing. After a bit of experience and careful monitoring we will be able to determine, if we wish, how much we can lower the dosing to match the lower lighting. This is where the “Estimative” part comes in.

In order to achieve 20ppm Nitrate per week we could assume that the tank has an uptake rate of 20ppm/7days a week = 3ppm per day (more or less). We could dose 3ppm per day but the developer of this procedure decided at the time to simply divide the ppm in thirds and dose three times a week, i.e. 7ppm three times per week – Mon-Wed-Fri (presumably easy to remember). The 3X dosing per week arbitrarily became standard procedure but this is not carved in stone. The chemistry has been already done to convert ppm into teaspoons of powder. Here is a sample of how the reference 20 US gallon tank could be dosed:

Sunday – 50% or more Water Change then dose [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Monday – 1/16 teaspoon CSM+B
Tuesday - [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Wednesday - 1/16 teaspoon CSM+B
Thursday - [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Friday – Rest
Saturday - Rest

You can see that if the tank were lit with 5wpg and if the uptake rate were maximum (3ppm) you would just about run out of nutrients the morning of the water change. If you skipped a day of dosing you would really be playing with fire. Since most of us don’t use this much light there is a surplus by water change day. Some people really fret about this surplus, or “Nutrient Build-up”. Really though it just doesn’t matter. If anything, it gives you an extra cushion if you miss a day or two like being out of town for a long weekend for example.
 
Hi again Chris, just another thought but have you tried altering/rotating the dc position to ensure c02 is even throughout the tank, or its current position isnt giving a 'false' reading?
TPN+ if dosed at 3x recommended doseage should effectively be up to EI regimes and contains the same ferts. Obviously its a lot more expensive which is part of the reason ive switched to a custom salts fert mix. I wondered about this too so asked Clive in the EI section, and he linked to James' planted tank page,
heres my q:
ceg4048 said:
Yes, in case you have trouble with chemical symbols the following is a translation:

KNO3=Potassium Nitrate
KH2PO4=Potassium Phosphate
MgSO4=Magnesium Sulfate
CSM+B=Trace Element Mix

You can find these products on this website AE POWDERS

You also have the option to use commercial products, the most prominent of which is Tropica Plant Nutrition+ (TPN+). This contains a combination of all the chemicals listed above so this is convenient, however it is more expensive. You can see it here: AE TPN+

Cheers,

Hi Clive, maybe a q for the fertiliser sub forum, but regarding TPN+ its interesting to know it contains the same nutrients as the EI method, but do you know what dosage you would need to add of TPN+ to provide in excess like EI?
Obviously it would prove uneconomical, but for those who use it it would be good to know the actual target dosage to ensure the bases are covered.
Thanks,
Ady.


and Clives answers:

Hi Ady,
Just have a gander at JamesC AIO page http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm. There you'll see some comparative concentration numbers for TPN+ as well as his DIY versions. You can see theat these are about a third the strength of the typical EI mix for most of the nutrients, however, since TPN uses ammonium nitrate there is a little bit more N. This is why most people whou use TPN+ actually wind up dosing 2-3 times as much of what the bottle recommends.

All fertilizers use more or less the same basic ingredients, even the expensive ones in perfume bottles. The marketing departments of various companies will work overtime to present their product as having super magical additives developed by Arcanists at the Harry Potter University, which supposedly enhances plant growth. But these are all illusions, because they must have the same active ingredients NPK+micros.

For example, there are generally only 3 basic ways to deliver N; NH3/NH4, Urea, and Nitrate salts. You can use any combination of these, and the combination in any given product depends on supplier cost and other economic factors. But, as I mentioned in the opening paragraph of the tutorial, by far, the most abundant ingredient in any commercial fertilizer is water, normally somewhere on the order of 90%-95% by weight. So why pay for water when you can simply use the same ingredients that they mix the water with? That is the essence of the EI mixes. If commercial aquarium fertilizers weren't so hideously priced, we would never even have heard of EI or PMDD. These DIY recipies were developed specifically as a retaliatory response to massive price gouging by "respectable" companies.

Cheers,

Hope this helps.
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
Cheers guys. I will use up my TPN+ at 3x stated dosage and then convert to EI just before it runs out. Just need to work out the right dosage of TPN+ as I am just going by what someone recommended me at present ... the info on the bottle is in German so I will have to think hard back to my German O Level days.
 
Im sure bottle dosage is 1ml/10l per week. Just times dosage by three and divide by 7 for daily dosing.
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
Definitely look at going down the Ei route Chris. I was using TPN+ in my 180ltr but the rate at which I was going through it, and the cost that it was incurring was becoming a nightmare. I swapped to E.i and never looked back. I prefer the way you can tailor quantity’s to rectify deficiencies, and algae outbreaks as I did when combating GSA.

I am not sure my diffuser is that good because i don't seem to observe the levels of mist that others talk about . I think I may need to work on that. But the CO2 is going in faster than you can count bubbles
If you are ploughing Co2 in at a rate that the bubbles are uncountable whilst using a diffuser (UP I presume) then there is possibly something amiss. If the diffuser is relatively new then the mist created should be extremely fine, but definitely observable. Mine at about 8 months is not as fine as it once was but it is still evident. To get an idea of injection rate I`m running about 3bps using a JBL Counter.
http://www.kubazoo.com/en/jbl-co2count-932.html
I`m concerned that you are injecting so much gas and not witnessing a decent mist!
And as for throwing in the towel...Shame on you! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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