Tall 250l - Y llechen ogof

[idris]

I'm really chuffed with how it's all turning out. And blown away by the approval it seems to have attracted from experienced folk. Especially for my first attempt at aquascaping Thanks all.

Bigmatt - I'm glad to have comfounded your expectations Having spent couple of days lookiong at it I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with some moss on the "wall". Having spent so long constructing it I think I'll probably leave some of it visible, but I do want to break up the lines a bit. I was thinking of Java Moss, but any suggestions what would work best (and be easy to grow)? As mentioned, I really like the look of this ...

... but I have no idea what the plant is. Any ideas?

For taller background plants, I've not made any definite decissions yet. I was thinking of a "Vallis curtain" but I think I'd like something less ubiquitous. Am very much open to suggestions, but what ever goes in needs to be low maintainence and not likely to take over in a low tech set up.

ALt81- that depends what you're offering in return I need some moss and some background plants

 

[idris]

As this tank is starting emerged I'm seeding the filter media with some finest vintage mulm I've acquired from a friend's tank ...

… and the pump is circulating about 50l of heated water in the garage.

The one thing that has struck me today about the filter media supplied by Rena is that there are very few plastic widgets for biological filtering. I suspect some ceramic rings may be on the shopping list. The other consideration is that if I don't put in the included carbon (which many people think is unnecessary) there is room in the filter for something other than the foam, floss and widgets. Any suggestions what's worth adding? I've seen some mention of "water polishing" media, but I know nothing about it. Suggestions please.

I've done tiny amount of replanting as I didn't want the Crypts to obscure the front of the cave.

As a1Matt suggested, I've swapped the Crypts from immediately in front of the cave with some Hair Grass at the back of the cave roof. Ideally I would have liked to move some more, but even the tiny amount of water in the tank made it a complete nightmare replanting the Hair Grass. (Maybe this is where I should have invested in some tweezers.) Also this has highlighted one of the putfalls of such a tall tank – I can only reach the bottom with one hand, so adjusting anything at a later date is going to be a bit of an undertaking
I might yet move some more crypts up there, but there is a really nice depression in the wood (it doesn't really show in the photos but it looks a bit like a glacial corrie) that I don't want to obsucre. I shall make a judgemsnt on that when everything has grown in a little.

Despite there being an inch or so of water in the tank, and temperatures of about 24 Celsius, and (from the amount of condensation) I would guess 100% humidity, I am concerned the leaves look as though they could be drying out. I don't recall seeing mention of this in my reading, but as a precaution I am misting the leaves at least once a day.
(I'm currently researching ferts for emerged misting on another thread.)

 

[a1Matt]

I like the rearranging, that was exactly what I had in mind when I wrote my posts. Just enough to break it up a little and open up the cave. You can get 0.5m long tweezers, I have a pair and they do not feel as tactile as shorter pairs, but I would watch out for them when you come to future tweaks (bound to happen sooner or later).

In a tank this deep the trimming consideration for moss is paramount in my opinion. Therefore the first thing that springs to mind mosswise is lomariopsis lineata (aka subwassertang, aka round pellia).
The reason is that when mosses layer the bottom layers get choked and die off. So they need regular trimming (get some long scissors too!), but! with the lomariopsis as long as you get some inverts mooching through it you can get it pretty deep with no consequences. I've grown it over 1 foot deep and when I trimmed it the bottom part was 100% healthy.

or! you could opt for a moss that only needs trimming infrequently due to compact nature of its growth (may take years to grow in though!) in which case fissidens fontanus would be a good choice.

Having said all that, most of the common mosses will be suitable and will attach after a couple of months.

As for background I would go for one of the fancier vallis sp. americana or natans I think would look nice ( http://www.livingwatersonline.co.uk/plant-stock.htm ), slow enough growers in a low tech environment that you can keep the runners under control.

Let Alt81 have first refusal on your offer, but if he does not want to then I will happily send you some moss in exchange for some custom piping. I have a few species to choose from

 

[bigmatt]

always happy to be wrong! I'd opt for weeping moss along the front of it cave edge precisely because it will weep down. But i'd also ignore me and take a1matt's advice on moss! You'll be amazed at how much easier things are with proper tools - as the actress said to the bishop ...

 

[Alastair]

Let Alt81 have first refusal on your offer, but if he does not want to then I will happily send you some moss in exchange for some custom piping. I have a few species to choose from

Awww not fair. Matts beat me to it now. I've just gotten rid of all my background plants and only have small amount if moss that came from him.
I have nothing left to give now.

Saying that, I may have a very tall red tiger lotus that I'll be disposing of soon that you could have anyway if you wanted it. Saves me throwing it if I do
Alastair

Formerly Alt81

 

[nayr88]

).

In a tank this deep the trimming consideration for moss is paramount in my opinion. Therefore the first thing that springs to mind mosswise is lomariopsis lineata (aka subwassertang, aka round pellia).
The reason is that when mosses layer the bottom layers get choked and die off. So they need regular trimming (get some long scissors too!), but! with the lomariopsis as long as you get some inverts mooching through it you can get it pretty deep with no consequences. I've grown it over 1 foot deep and when I trimmed it the bottom part was 100% healthy.

agree with that, nothing more annoying when you find rotting moss at the base and bits floating off, you have to keep on top of it, an the pellia it stays good and healthy

bigmatt- weeping moss would look really cool though your right, with the tank being so tall the trimming to keep it from rotting at the base would be killer haha

 

[Tony Swinney]

Great work Idris You're making a cracking job of scaping a very tricky shaped tank. I'd consider cryptocoryne balansae in the back corners to give you some height, it'll grow to over a metre tall, and sways beautifully in any current.

Tony

 

[idris]

End of week one and all may not be going so well. So all opinions please ...

I'm not unhappy with the crypts, and the grass doesn't seem to be doing anything bad.

But some of the Amazon Swords are not looking so hot

Some of the leaves have yellow and/or black bits, as is the end of the longest runner.
Now for the caveats …

On about day 3 I looked at the leaves and thought they looked as though they were a little dry, so I started misting them. And I've tried to do that once or twice a day.

I had intended to put some peat under the akadama. But in all the excitement I forgot. So there were initially no nutrients for the plants. By day 5 I had acquired some NPK + trace ferts from http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk and, as the instructions are to use a couple of times a week, I have just misted with the ferts once so far.

And as mentioned, the Swords were the first plants I tackled and as a complete Noob I didn't remove all the damaged leaves. I don't know, but I suspect these are the worst leaves.

Diagnosis and/or recommendations please.

 

[bigmatt]

flood it and move to full EI dosing mate ... but then i've never used DSM so my advice may not be the best! M

 

[idris]

Too many water changes and too high maintenancefor my taste. Not going to happen.

 

[idris]

Having done some reading over night, I have identified a possible problem, and spotted some evidence of a secondary symptom.

I may have too much water.

Firstly I've read that if there's condensation on the glass the humidity is too high.
Also that the substrate should be moist, but no more.
And excessive humidity can cause mould.

Well I've spotted what might be mould - white spots on one of the pieces of wood.

And no only has there been a significant amount of condensation on the glass, there's been about an inch of water above the lowest part of the substrate. Reducing this was a pit of a PITA : initially I thought about syphoning it out, but with nothing but my lungs and a 12mm bore pipe and a 2'6" to raise the water, my lung power isn't sufficient to start the flow.
So I resorted to sponging the water out of the tank. A slow process, and although the water level is no longer visible, the substrate is still wet at best.

As a secondary measure I'm going to leave the tank open for a while to see if evaporation will help.

 

[a1Matt]

Your after pic looks like a good amount of water. I did not realise how much you had in before or I would have said something.

I'd go for 80% humidity. Lower than that and the crypts will suffer as they like really high humidity (up to 95% ime).
Swords like lower humidity (I keep some as normal pot plants in my house), so it may not be possible to keep them both happy.
If I had to err on one side, I would stick with higher humidity as I suspect the swords will be more tolerant.
Stop misting them though!

 

[Ian Holdich]

IME the wood goes like that when not dried to its full potential. Shrimp and snails love it! Those swords need a good trim as well.

interesting project!

 

[NeilW]

Two tips for your hairgrass
1) Try and separate all the individual blades with a comb. This may sound extremely tedious but I've found emersed hairgrass hates being stuck together for some unknown reason and as soon as the blades are individual you get a boost in growth.

2) Cut about 5-10mm off the top of all of it to encourage new growth. To get rid off all the clippings just fill with water and net out all the floating bits.

 

[idris]

Thanks guys.

... I'd go for 80% humidity. Lower than that and the crypts will suffer as they like really high humidity (up to 95% ime).
Swords like lower humidity ...
...Stop misting them though!

Any tips on how to estimate %age humidity?
And is it ok to mist with ferts. (I've got this advice from a Tom Barr thread.)

IME the wood goes like that when not dried to its full potential. Shrimp and snails love it! Those swords need a good trim as well.

So the white bits will get munched when it gets flooded, yes?
As for trimming the swords, what should I be trimming, the damaged leaves, or more generally? And when trimming should I just cut back as far as possible? (It's going to be very different to just pull leaves off as the tank is too tall to get two hands to the plants.)

...Try and separate all the individual blades with a comb.
... To get rid off all the clippings just fill with water and net out all the floating bits.

Combing grass? If anyone finds I'm doing that I'll get sectioned!
As for the clippings, are they ok lying on the substrate for a few weeks till I flood the tank?

 

[Gill]

Totally Agree with NielW and Ianho. Wood does go like that if not fully dried out. And Yes Shrimp love it.
And yes cutting the Hairgrass and seperating the indiviual blades will help greatly IME.

 

[a1Matt]

Thanks guys.

... I'd go for 80% humidity. Lower than that and the crypts will suffer as they like really high humidity (up to 95% ime).
Swords like lower humidity ...
...Stop misting them though!

Any tips on how to estimate %age humidity?
And is it ok to mist with ferts. (I've got this advice from a Tom Barr thread.)

A hygrometer will measure humidity.
I got mine off ebay (about £1 for a secondhand exo terra analogue dial one).
I found it interesting how the humidity varied not just by the amount I had the cover glass open, but also by how hot the tank was.

I guess there is a bit of a paradox misting\not misting the swords. I'd be inclined not to as that raises their humidity and use substrate fertilisation instead (osmocote or similar), then again it is a good way of feeding them. ....If it was me I would turn it into an experiment and mist one half and not the other and see which fares better

 

[idris]

This is not going well.

A week and a half in and my Swords are increasingly in a very sorry state. I don't think there's a single healthy looking leaf on any of the plants.

As per NeilW's recommendations, I have trimmed the Hair Grass and splayed out the blades as best I can. However, having done this, it has revealed a significant proportion of the blades are turning brown. (This may be because they have spent a week or so in tight clumps.)

Even the Crypts are looking less than happy.

By my reckoning there is only a limited number of possible causes:
1 - too much or too little water
2 - too much or too little light
3 - too much or too little nutrients
And since there are 3 species involved, it could be a combination of causes.
But which are responsible is beyond me. HELP!
(In case the humidity is a significant factor I have ordered a hygrometer which should arrive in the next day or so.)

And to add insult to injury, I also seem to have a weed.

Presumably it's come in with one of the other plants, but any ideas what it is and whether I need to worry about it?

 

[idris]

Hygrometer arrived and installed.
After a couple of hours it's reading 70%.
I know this has been higher in the last week as the cover glass was open for a while and the condensation has reduced significantly.

 

[a1Matt]

I'd leave the weed to see what it grows into.
Can always pull it out later easily enough.

Water level is OK now.

So I would put humidity as main cause.

I've tried swords a few times emersed and my only success is at room humidity.
Crypts need higher humidity than 70%. Aim for 80-90%.
I do not know about hairgrass, as I have never grown that emersed.

I am not sure to be honest, but I suspect that unless your plants were starved before you got them, ferts will not be an issue.

Not sure about light! I found it wasn't an issue on emersed setups.

By the way, when I grew emersed I just put a handful of osmocote in the substrate (I used akadama too) and that was ferts sorted (for the 2 or 3 months I had the setup). You can freeze osmocote in ice cubes, then poke the cubes under the plants.
I then left the setup to do its own thing. Just checked to make sure the substrate did not dry up completely. and tweaked how open the cover glass was to get the humidity right. Light was from a window. Hope that helps.