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Just got back from TGM...

Hi all,
My slant on adding K, is that it stimulates photosynthesis, and that it is not a macro element, but more an essential element like Co2 is to plants. There is the argument that K is never really needed in an aquarium as our tap water usually has enough.
I'm not sure why Tropica don't add K (potassium), but plants need large amounts of it. If you are growing hydroponic Lettuce, Tomatoes etc. you need growing solutions with about 300 - 500ppm K, compared to 200 - 300 ppm N and about 35ppm P. On a dry matter basis plants are on average 2% - 3% K. Potassium is necessary for the synthesis of proteins, and in the osmotic regulation of stomatal opening, amongst other functions.

I also don't think tap water will contain large amounts of it, ours (Bath) certainly doesn't. There isn't a regulatory limit for the K content of drinking water in the UK, so you would have to request the value from your water supplier. As a ball park figure rivers in the UK generally contains about 2-3 ppm potassium, and our tap water (from a limestone aquifer) less than 1ppm. If you live in an area with a lot of granite, particularly if it is partially de-composed (China clay mining areas), or where the water quality is fairly iffy anyway (East Anglia, major conurbations) you might get a bit more in your water, but my suspicion would be that plant growth would be K limited in nearly all UK tap water.

cheers Darrel
 
There is potassium (K) in both their TPN and TPN+ products. Here is the breakdown of TPN+ from the Tropica website.

N 1.34%
P 0.10%
K 1.03%
Mg 0.39%
S 0.91%
B 0.004%
Cu 0.006%
Fe 0.07%
Mn 0.04%
Mo 0.002%
Zn 0.002%
 
I've also got crushed oyster shell in there, so it won't do too much!!! I swapped half over to ADA sand when I realized what it was (I didn't have a bag, and it didn't look like typical coral sand), but didn't want to disturb the plants too much once they had rooted. My pH and kH are HIGH!
 
Graeme Edwards said:
...My slant on adding K, is that it stimulates photosynthesis, and that it is not a macro element, but more an essential element like Co2 is to plants. There is the argument that K is never really needed in an aquarium as our tap water usually has enough...
Graeme, K is a macronutrient, is omnipresent within the plant and id does a whole lot more than that. We covered this a couple of years ago in the thread Lack of Potassium?
Graeme Edwards said:
But my experience is, go easy on the +. I know some may disagree, but for what your planing, this would be my advice. I wonder if people get told to add to much fert and then complain of algae.
I add too much fert all the time and I don't get algae. So algae can't be due to adding too much fert. Although having said that, TPN+ derives much of it's N from Ammonium Nitrate.
Ammonium has been implicated as an algal trigger. Unsing non-ammonium containing ferts will avoid this possibility. In any case, if you look at the data you'll find that overwhelmingly, there are more cases of algae due to not adding enough ferts, or due to poor general husbandry. Poor flow, too much light, poor maintenance, overfeeding - theses are the causes of algae. This should be obvious by now.

Speaking of which...
Tom said:
For an algae supposedly associated with new tanks and probably ammonia spikes, it's odd that it's still blooming strong as ever with good filtration and daily 50% water changes.
This typically means you have too much light for the given conditions. None of your corrective actions will fix the problem unless you reduce the intensity because diatoms love CO2 and nutrients too. They are just not triggered by nutrients/CO2. Once triggered by excessive light and other poor conditions they are happy to live in your tank until evicted by low lighting.

Here is another obvious fact that no one seems to pay attention to: LIGHT triggers algae.
If excess nutrients cause algae, how come there's no algae in that highly concentrated nutrient bottle of yours?

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
If excess nutrients cause algae, how come there's no algae in that highly concentrated nutrient bottle of yours?

Why didn't I thought of that myself? ? :)

I came back from holidays to see my tank with so much algae that I could put my hand inside and scoop it, I could scrape it from the fern leaves.

The issue wasn't CO2 or Nutrients, but too much light and no water changes.

Forward 3 weeks, a dark period of 3 days, then only 6 hours of light a day, with a complete clean out of pipes, Koralia and heater, the algae is gone. Still some patches of green spot algae, but with three times a week water changes of at least 60% each, I know that I will win the battle.

From posts, and from personal experience, the welcome committee for algae is not ferts or CO2, but light! Light is the one that give us the grief.

I have seen amazing tanks that take lots of ferts, with EI, and they look amazing, algae free and very healthy!
 
ceg4048 said:
Here is another obvious fact that no one seems to pay attention to: LIGHT triggers algae.

AMEn TO THAT!!!! i've said this for AGES! I also got slated for it by one or 2!

i'm glad you said this clive, now hopefully people will listen
 
Mark Evans said:
ceg4048 said:
Here is another obvious fact that no one seems to pay attention to: LIGHT triggers algae.

AMEn TO THAT!!!! i've said this for AGES! I also got slated for it by one or 2!

i'm glad you said this clive, now hopefully people will listen

I am with you on this too! Its so evident in so many tanks that people i have got a little over-keen with the lights and not got the balance of all the key parts right. Yes you can have strong lighting but start low and get the balance right then turn all (light+co2+nutrients etc) things up if you want to ;)
 
This may sound obvious to some but when we talk of having 'too much light' it took me a while to click that it actually means 'too much light for the current conditions'. This subtle difference made me realise that there is no set rules on how little light is actually needed to trigger algae and be 'too much'. For example normally the 9 watt T5 over 17 litres of water in my nano would be considered low lighting when conditions are optimal of both CO2 and nutrients, but due to lack of flow both of these elements were not delivered resulting in algae. I have learnt that even small amounts of light can be 'too much light' if the other criteria of both CO2 and nutrients aren't met to match and doesn't necessarily mean I was trying to suspend a thousand megawatt metal halide over a puddle and wondering why it went green. Where I wasn't fulfilling the 'balance' the light was 'too much'. As I'm a bit thick and slow this made me scratch my head a lot until finally I was enlightened :lol:
 
I must admit the hard sell tactics have put me off going to TGM somewhat. I would still pop in if I was in the area but perhaps now would not make a special trip. I would also be a bit dubious about any advice they give out if they are claiming that products like TPN/TPN+ do not contain K. :thumbdown:
 
Brenmuk said:
I must admit the hard sell tactics have put me off going to TGM somewhat. I would still pop in if I was in the area but perhaps now would not make a special trip. I would also be a bit dubious about any advice they give out if they are claiming that products like TPN/TPN+ do not contain K. :thumbdown:

I have made a trip to TGM from London, a bunch of us did, it was 4 hours each way, and I found the staff very friendly and not salesmen at all. I stayed at the shop for about 4 or 5 hours, and was free to walk around, look at all the tanks, plants, wood, rocks and the first time someone came to talk to me was to ask if I wanted sugar or milk on my tea. :D

I did buy a couple of things, but picked them up myself and just paid, no hard sell whatsoever. :clap:

Will for sure do another trip, before the bad weather comes again. :)
 
Well said, I've not visited TGM yet but my dealings on the phone have always been pleasurable.
I don't know how your conversation went with the staff there, but if you go in, like many tirekickers and make out you're up for purchasing and asking about products, then perhaps the impression was given that you were wanting to make a purchase. Forgive them for assuming this, if it was not the case.

If I'm ever accused of giving anyone a hard sell in my own retail environment it's usually a complete timewasters, not someone who wants to shop.
Sales is a tough line to be in and make everyone happy.

I have no complaints of TGM and there's nothing worse than coming away and thinking, "I wish someone had given me the push and best advice to persuade me to purchase, instead of walking away empty handed. So that's another way to think about it.
There's a great saying, 'we don't regret the money we spend, we only regret the money we don't spend' :D

Cheers
 
It's probably just the enthusiasm, which is definitely a good thing provided you're given the option of what to buy, rather than feeling channeled towards the most expensive ADA product (and I'm not doubting it's ability at all). Had a good chat with Jim over the phone when I got back, which was a nice touch. I would go again, but only when I don't fancy going through the online shop - it's a long way. I like the area too so would probably integrate the trip into a couple or three days away. It is nice having a cup of tea and a chat there though, and Graeme's square tank was looking fantastic if a little overgrown at the moment! Altums are lovely too. Some bits and pieces including some hardscape is unjustifiably expensive for me anyway, however generally comes through ADA I imagine, so... yeah.

Tom
 
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