Maq's low-tech troubles

[_Maq_]

Here you can see, on the upper shelf, a series of four tanks which I named "Portugals". Their names from left to right are Branco, Azul, Vermelho & Preto (meaning White, Blue, Red, Black). Each of them is 70 liters net, and faithful to my standard, sandy substrate (0.6-1.2 mm), lighting 10 to 25 W ordinary LED bulbs for 7 hours a day, water pump with venturi, no filters, no CO2 enhancement, no heating, no animals except snails. All established in June last year. Although I enjoy watching these tanks very much, they are NOT meant to deliver any particular beauty. It's just my collection of various plants, and while divided among four tanks, it enables me to compare growth and other events depending on slightly (or more than slightly) different conditions, mainly mineral composition of water. In general, I follow pH decrease from Branco to Preto.


You may notice that on the lower shelf of the same rack, Micurins are positioned - you may know them from here . Micurins are meant for short-term intensive experiments with clearly defined start and end. Conversely, Portugals keep on running, though I change mineralization quite often. There's always something to adjust, improve, or to explore.
This thread is not meant to expose beautiful tanks neither success stories. There's not much to say about plants which are growing fairly well; the more so that this is low-tech, so that my "fine" results usually still lack something compared with the same plants kept in hi-tech conditions.
Instead, I want to be presenting some of my disasters, or less than successful developments, to discuss them with you, my colleagues.

Here you can see my Rotala indica. They grow slowly, occassionaly melting from lower parts, and dropping older leaves. In short, they don't look nice.


Also neighbouring Cuphea anagalloidea suffers similarly.

(Rotala ramosior 'Florida' is from tissue culture, planted here five weeks ago, and seems still hesitating whether to grow or not - yet not dying.)

 

[erwin123]

R. Florida needs Calcium, so its great in tanks with Seiryu stone. It'll never look as good in softwater tanks.
As for R. Indica which is normally a weed, I think it was mentioned elsewhere, its a CO2 problem - your flow probably needs to be optimised to ensure that there is good gas exchange between the substrate level and the surface of the tank.

Speaking of good substrate level flow, why not try some Bucephelandra in the tank? They are easy plants to grow as long as you have good water circulation. If they do well, it'll indicate you have good flow to the substrate, if they do badly, you know there is something wrong...

As for Cuphea - i have no idea how to grow that plant as well - it looks similar to R.Florida so I wonder if it has similar requirements? Flowgrow doesn't have any info.

 

[_Maq_]

your flow probably needs to be optimised

My water pumps with venturi are positioned in the center of the rear side of the tank and the water flow is oriented towards the front side. The water full of tiny bubbles is striking the front side and moving down to the plants. So, I believe the water flow is strong enough, always bringing with new oxygen and carbon dioxide. (Unfortunately, it's impossible to make pics of those bubbles, but they are really abundant and the flow around the plants is quite vigorous.)
I'll post here a pic of my buces growing nearby. You'll have fun guaranteed!

 

[_Maq_]

Hereby I proudly present one of my largest Bucephalandras.
This one is about five years old. When I purchased it, it had a bunch of normal-sized leaves. I attached it to a wood, and newer leaves were always a bit smaller than the older ones. Years passed, I've tried a few different tanks, different conditions - yet my results with Buces are invariably the same: they remain dwarfed.


... and often attacked by BBA:


My Crypts follow suit. Again, no matter what I try, various conditions, they remain small:

 

[Andy Pierce]

Are struggles with buce and crypts common in non-CO2 injected tanks? I did try growing a wide variety of buce in my low tech tank (Shrimphaus - Fireplace aquarium) and had no success at all, eventually removing all of them when they got colonised by BBA. Crypts though have done ok for me. C. walkerii grew well is and still seems healthy enough a year later. Then there is this thing (circled in cyan) that has been consistently really good in my low tech setup, propagating itself vigorously by runners. It came in a big multi-pack of buce and crypts but I don't think it's a crypt; it doesn't get any bigger than 8 cm across and 5 cm high. Any clue what it is? A google image search suggests Helanthium bolivianum 'Quadricostatus'?

 

[G H Nelson]

Helanthium bolivianum 'Quadricostatus'?
Looks like it to me!....😉

 

[erwin123]

The 3 main issues for Buces are
(1) unstable parameters - they like it if you don't keep on changing the water parameters. a non-CO2 tank has the advantage of more 'stable' CO2.
(2) lack of flow to the substrate level
(3) dirty tank, lots of organic waste

assuming the water parameters (dH/gH and fertilisation) are STABLE and within the range of tolerance for Buces, then the only item left is lack of flow to the substrate level. (organic waste is probably not applicable to a tank with no livestock unless you have lots of rotting leaves that don't get removed)

here's a photo of my desktop low-tech no water change tank (12 litre mini-tank) during its "Wallichii gone crazy phase" (I've since tossed the Wallichii).

 

[erwin123]

Hi Maq, looking forward to a photo update of your L. Pantanal and L. Senegalensis.

For Pantanal, the 'Meta' variant is actually much easier to grow - I had to remove most of them because they grow too fast and therefore are not suitable for a fortnightly maintenance schedule. (If you let them overgrow, they will convert to emersed form and stunt when you try to submerge the emerged form and then you have to wait for new sideshoots to replant...)

 

[aec34]

Are struggles with buce and crypts common in non-CO2 injected tanks?

I don’t run CO2 and have never had problems with these plants - crypts in particular grow well really for me; I briefly had some BBA on a few leaves, but this went with some trimming.
All my tanks have aquasoil, and are small (max 60 l.) and so relatively shallow. Just throwing some more variables out there 😬
I don’t tinker much with my tanks, so fulfil @erwin123 ’s (1).

 

[Myrtle]

Same as @aec34 ; all my tanks are low tech, no CO2 both crypts and buce grow well for me. All my buce are in rainwater tanks but I'm currently experimenting with some in hard water with cooler temps (21C) and one unheated shrimp tank. A few months in and they're sending out new roots at last.

 

[MichaelJ]

Are struggles with buce and crypts common in non-CO2 injected tanks?

My tanks are lean low-techs... My Bucephalandra are generally doing well - slow but steady growth - very undemanding. Crypts however have always been a bit of a mystery to me; some would grow really well after being introduced, some would just wither and melt after a while. Sometimes I've moved healthy established crypts around in the same tank just to see them melt off in a matter of days... I've seen super healthy well-established crypts melt in a couple days for absolutely no apparent reason (no other plants or other crypts showing signs of distress) I have had and still have crypts that refuses to grow or set out new leaves but otherwise "appears fine"... What gives? I have absolutely no idea. I do love crypts though.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Witcher]

occassionaly melting from lower parts, and dropping older leaves

Maybe they are getting old, who knows 😉
Neither plants nor humans do live forever. Especially when it comes to annual plants.

 

[_Maq_]

Sometimes I've moved healthy established crypts around in the same tank just to see them melt off in a matter of days...

I think this feature of Crypts is widely observed. They drop their leaves only to create new BIG ones shortly after.
My permanent problem looks differently. They don't melt, they grow, but they create smaller and smaller leaves. In the end, they get so small that you could not see them without knowing that they are indeed there.

 

[_Maq_]

A contribution to a discussion I've been leading with @Hufsa and others.
What follows happened in the tank Branco - pH target 6.8, silica sand 0.6-1.2 mm. Established 10 months ago.
Two months ago I pushed an iron nail into the substrate. In a place where plants' roots probably don't reach. Yesterday I pulled it out:

You can see, the part above substrate got very rusty. Iron oxidized to FeO(OH).H2O or simply Fe(OH)3 - ferric hydroxide. As expected in oxygenated water.
The level of substrate is on the mark 54 mm on the picture. You can see a few sand grains attached. Those are the remnants of the crust which covers my substrate.
Down from about 48 mm mark, very few oxidation occurred (brown hint), and there's a visible black hint there. I suppose that's iron sulfide, which suggests the nail was in contact with hydrogen sulfide, though in unimportant amount. Probably.
Also yesterday, I performed maintenance and took some Hygrophilas out. They had rich and long roots, snow white and healthy. With them, I unintentionally pulled out the roots of Cryptocoryne spiralis Tiger. I have mentioned it on multiple occasions: My crypts don't grow well, they remain small. Here, look at the next picture:

You can see that the roots are rich, long, healthy. That's despite they grow in depth devoid of oxygen. This supports my opinion that healthy roots are not a sign of well-oxygenated substrate. In fact, substrates are commonly suboxic or anoxic, and healthy plants are still able to maintain multiple and long roots healthy, i.e. well-supplied by oxygen through aerenchyma.
I maintain that decaying roots are not due to lack of oxygen in the substrate, but rather due to low oxygen in the water column.
These crypts you can see rank among the 'better' ones in my care, but still, I keep them about six months and they don't grow any bigger. Healthy leaves, healthy roots, but not increasing in size. Hell, why? I've been contemplating some problem with my substrate, but such roots are sign of a perfect health, aren't they?
Added to fine sand (full of detritus in spite of never hosting any fish, only snails and microbes), the substrate is covered by a crust - grains stuck together by weak glue - which suggests that oxygen penetration is truly hindered. I think the 'glue' is accumulated microbial biofilm, never disturbed by fish. Only a week ago I've acquired some Melanoides snails. (I wonder if they make any difference.)
The arrow points to the remains of the crust, attached to side glass:

Ah, yes, and that's my biggest Bucephalandra. No less than five years old.

 

[Hufsa]

Really interesting! 😃

Established 10 months ago.

Oh wow, its quite uhh crusty in the substrate for such a lightly stocked tank No pun intended, I mostly mean the amount of debris in the substrate. Maybe its because you dont have any filter media?

Two months ago I pushed an iron nail into the substrate. In a place where plants' roots probably don't reach.

Im assuming this is the same tank as the next pictures right? I think so but just checking.

They had rich and long roots, snow white and healthy. With them, I unintentionally pulled out the roots of Cryptocoryne spiralis Tiger. I have mentioned it on multiple occasions: My crypts don't grow well, they remain small.

View attachment 204428

This picture is interesting in ways I didnt quite expect. That Spiralis looks reasonably well formed, its just.. really small. Have you tried the crypts and buce in higher dosing tanks? Something akin to the "crazy levels" the rest of us use?
Maybe its not an issue with your substrate at all 🤔 Maybe these plant types are just the last person to get to the buffet, and theres only some weird tofu and wilted iceberg lettuce left 😁 In other words, could they be losing the competition for nutrients with all the other plants? Stem plants grow a lot faster. So they might uptake nutrients faster as well, or?

You can see that the roots are rich, long, healthy. That's despite they grow in depth devoid of oxygen. This supports my opinion that healthy roots are not a sign of well-oxygenated substrate.

Thats pretty compelling evidence. I need to reconsider how I have sort of assumed white = oxygen. Maybe it would be more accurate to say white = healthy/normal.

I maintain that decaying roots are not due to lack of oxygen in the substrate, but rather due to low oxygen in the water column.

🤔
Could decaying roots be caused by high sulfates as well? Or somewhat inelegantly put, high mineral dosing leading to higher oxygen demand in the substrate than normal, with effects that damage roots? I dont know..

These crypts you can see rank among the 'better' ones in my care, but still, I keep them about six months and they don't grow any bigger. Healthy leaves, healthy roots, but not increasing in size. Hell, why? I've been contemplating some problem with my substrate, but such roots are sign of a perfect health, aren't they?

Maybe in another tank without the sand snails, you can try to increase macro dosing? I would be very interested to see what effect that might have.

View attachment 204429
Ah, yes, and that's my biggest Bucephalandra. No less than five years old.

Are all your buces planted into the substrate? If yes, can you place a few above the substrate? It could be used to troubleshoot. If it behaves more or less the same way with only water column access, that points more towards a water column issue in my eyes.

 

[Andy Pierce]

That is interesting. I'm no buce expert but isn't the conventional wisdom these (and anubias) should be attached to hardscape rather than planted in substrate? This is something I've never really understood - for underwater plants 'wetness' is not an issue and you've demonstrated here oxygen (or lack thereof) is not sufficient to drive unhealthy roots either so how does the plant know whether it is in the substrate or over the substrate? I suppose flow could be contributory where material in the substrate can allow pockets of nastiness to develop where these would be 'rinsed away' above substrate in a good flow situation.

 

[erwin123]

How to grow Bucephalandra

Bucephalandra are slow-growing, hardy and attractive plants. They are endemic to Indonesia, and are found on the island of Borneo. This is a detailed guide on how to grow Buceps / Bucephalandra , including how to overcome challenges in keeping this species.

www.2hraquarist.com

Here's a guide from Dennis:

They can also be grown on the substrate as long as the rhizome is not buried.

Also this blog:

Urban Aquaria

Natural Planted Aquariums For The Urban Dweller

www.urbanaquaria.com

 

[MichaelJ]

you can try to increase macro dosing?

Heresy!!





Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

Im assuming this is the same tank as the next pictures right?

Yes, all is the same tank - Branco.

the amount of debris in the substrate. Maybe its because you dont have any filter media?

No fish, no organic input (food), only dissolved minerals. Upon every WC, I remove decaying leaves, but I'm not overly diligent in that. Snails, fungi, bacteria. And so much organic matter (with adsorbing capacity).
Would a sponge in a filter make much of a difference? And is it better like this or is it better to catch it in a filter? That is an open question. I've deviated from common practice about two/three years ago. But it's difficult to make comparisons (what would happen IF there were a sponge filter in this tank?).

could they be losing the competition for nutrients with all the other plants?

A possibility. Crypts are supposed to get much nutrients through their roots. What if the crust hinders penetration of nutrients into the deep and crypts build their beautiful root system largely in vain?

Could decaying roots be caused by high sulfates as well? Or somewhat inelegantly put, high mineral dosing leading to higher oxygen demand in the substrate

I said lack of oxygen in the water column, but I'd better say relative lack... High sulfates are harmless (as far as I know), but reduced substances of all kind (incl. sulfides) develop in the substrate. Depending on situation, they may be more or less abundant, and more or less oxygen must be pushed into the roots to keep them oxygenated and safe from reduced substances' toxicity.
Summary: The more reduced substrate, the higher oxygen demand. This is rather well documented in literature, as well as differing tolerance of various species to organic matter amount in the substrate.

you can try to increase macro dosing?

I'm considering that. But Crypts were present in my Micurins (experimental set), they experienced high doses of nutrients, and yet no remarkable change occurred. Perhaps they needed more time?

Are all your buces planted into the substrate? If yes, can you place a few above the substrate?

During most of their lives, they were attached to pieces of wood or coconut shells. The results were identical - growing smaller and smaller until they reached current size of leaves, and they maintain it.

 

[Hufsa]

A possibility. Crypts are supposed to get much nutrients through their roots. What if the crust hinders penetration of nutrients into the deep and crypts build their beautiful root system largely in vain?

I thought that to myself, but some people have declared the root-feeder thing null and void, which made me reluctant to say it. But the way I see it, perhaps the stemplants etc are faster/better at taking nutrients through the leaves than crypts for example. So its not that crypts cant (obviously they can, as shown many times), but maybe they are a bit slower at it 🤔

I said lack of oxygen in the water column, but I'd better say relative lack... High sulfates are harmless (as far as I know), but reduced substances of all kind (incl. sulfides) develop in the substrate. Depending on situation, they may be more or less abundant, and more or less oxygen must be pushed into the roots to keep them oxygenated and safe from reduced substances' toxicity.
Summary: The more reduced substrate, the higher oxygen demand. This is rather well documented in literature, as well as differing tolerance of various species to organic matter amount in the substrate.

I was trying to get your findings to match up with the observations from my tank you see.

I'm considering that. But Crypts were present in my Micurins (experimental set), they experienced high doses of nutrients, and yet no remarkable change occurred. Perhaps they needed more time?

How long were they in higher doses for? You run low tech so its not unlikely to me they needed more time to catch up to speed. I have observed especially in crypts, that they are a bit like a steam locomotive. At first the speed is painfully slow, because there is a lot of inertia to overcome. But once they have finally accelerated they will be much faster, they just need enough time to get there. Plant mass needs to increase to allow the plant to utilize the new levels of nutrients for example.
Sometimes I have thought that the length of some of your experiments is not long enough to account for the relative slowness of a low tech system. Even in high tech, there are observations that plants need far longer time to adapt than we commonly allow them (im very guilty of this). I think @plantnoobdude will write more about his observations on this in his next journal update.

During most of their lives, they were attached to pieces of wood or coconut shells. The results were identical - growing smaller and smaller until they reached current size of leaves, and they maintain it.

That suggests watercolumn to me 🤔