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Vishnuvarthan

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2022
Messages
35
Location
India
Hi all ,
I am constantly getting stunned growth on some of my rotala’s , help needed to find what might be the issue and how to fix it.

Tank : 60*30*34 set up for 4months
Light : Chihiros wrgb2 60 at 45% all for 6hrs with 30mins ramp time.
Filter : Sunsun 302
Fertiliser: 1ml APT complete daily
Soil : ADA Amazonia with Powersand
Co2 : ON 2hrs before light and OFF 1hr before light, inline with almost yellow drop checker.
Affected species : Rotala blood red , Hra
Water : 1Kh 8Gh (RO remineralised)

4BE372AB-F89B-4C17-A434-6C6EA4605CAA.jpeg

CCC61D94-32A9-4FC2-AA2C-36B9D04FF9CE.jpeg

B3F81223-4ED6-469E-B528-2DE16C66AAD1.jpeg
 
Hi all,
Water : 1Kh 8Gh (RO remineralised)
What chemical salts (or product) do you use to add the 8 dGH?

You may be able to use less and / or a different ratio of calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg). I say that, because Rotala spp. seem very prone to iron (Fe) deficiencies in <"harder (calcium rich) water">. <"Rotala Rotundifolia - Growth Issues">.

That looks like an issue with iron, or possibly manganese (Mn), purely because it has <"effected the new leaves"> and it is only <"non-mobile nutrients"> that do this.

cheers Darrel
 
I use Dennerle Gh Kh+ since I have cherry shrimps. 4ml ( using the provided spoon)for around 20l water that I change weekly once.
 
Hi all,

Does it say which salts it contains? I'm still struggling with the price ~£15 for 200g.

cheers Darrel
They've always been very scant on details (which is a bad policy for products such as these) . I believe I have seen an analysis that it contains Ca and Mg in a ~3:1 ratio from CaCO3 (KH+GH) and MgSO4 (GH) + various vitamins (B) and trace elements, but don't hold me to it as I cant find the source at the moment. There are absolutely no additional info on their website (that I could find). I never used it, but a lot of shrimp keepers find it excellent for shrimps... but not necessarily plants in a high tech tank I suppose.

My shrimps love the Dennerle Mineral and Protein shrimp food products - which I do recommend :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
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This is from one other thread here
“The normal dosage of 1,5 g/10 L results in:

Ca = 32,8 mg/L
Mg = 5,4 mg/L
KH = 1-2 °dH
GH = 6-7 °dH
Conductivity = 270-330 µS/cm”
 
They've always been very scant on details (which is a bad policy for products such as these) . I believe I have seen an analysis that it contains Ca and Mg in a ~3:1 ratio from CaCO3 (KH+GH) and MgSO4 (GH) + various vitamins (B) and trace elements, but don't hold me to it as I cant find the source at the moment. There are absolutely no additional info on their website (that I could find). I never used it, but a lot of shrimp keepers find it excellent for shrimps... but not necessarily plants in a high tech tank I suppose.

My shrimps love the Dennerle Mineral and Protein shrimp food products - which I do recommend :)

Cheers,
Michael
What would u suggest to remineralise RO water that are proven to work well with plants.
 
I have seen this sort of stunting/discoloration when my Rotalas get overcrowded, and the shorter stems don't get enough flow/light.
Looking at the way you have placed your filter outlet , it appears that the rear of the tank (where the Rotala shappen to be) is getting the lowest amount of flow compared to the front of the tank.
 
Hi all,
What would u suggest to remineralise RO water that are proven to work well with plants.
Any mixture you like of calcium chloride (CaCl.nH2O), "Epsom Salts"magnesium sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O) and potassium carbonate / bicarbonate (K2CO3 / KHCO3). They should all be easily obtainable, as they have culinary or health uses.

Details for dosing are at <"James' Planted Tank"> and the theoretical background to dGH and dKH <"are at the Krib"> and in <"Some handy facts about water">. Images are from James' Planted Tank.

James_remineraliser2.jpg

The normal dosage of 1,5 g/10 L results in:

Ca = 32,8 mg/L
Mg = 5,4 mg/L
KH = 1-2 °dH
GH = 6-7 °dH
You can have a play with the <"IFC calculator"> to see if you can get to those exact figures. This would give you some idea.

James_remineraliser1.jpg

That will do. Neither calcium or magnesium carbonate (CaCO3 / MgCO3) <"are very soluble">, but at 1.5g in 10 litres may go into solution if dry dosed. Same applies to calcium sulphate (CaSO4.2H2O), not very soluble.

You also need to take the "Common Ion Effect" into account <"About making liquid gh booster">.
A splosh of tap water.
If you have hard, alkaline tap water? Definitely the easiest option <"Choosing Aquarium Plants For Soft And/Or Hard Water">. One advantage of hard tap water (or water that you add a <"cuttle bone etc"> to) is that all the CaCO3 has already gone into solution and you know <"you have ~17 dGH / 17 dKH">.

cheers Darrel
 
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I have seen this sort of stunting/discoloration when my Rotalas get overcrowded, and the shorter stems don't get enough flow/light.
Looking at the way you have placed your filter outlet , it appears that the rear of the tank (where the Rotala shappen to be) is getting the lowest amount of flow compared to the front of the tank.
Yes but my filter flow is relatively high at 1000lph. I don’t have any other position to place the outlet without damaging the plants with flow. Some of the stems with deficiencies are directly under the light which receives the highest PAR.
 
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Hi all,

Any mixture you like of calcium chloride (CaCl.nH2O), "Epsom Salts"magnesium sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O) and potassium carbonate / bicarbonate (K2CO3 / KHCO3). They should all be easily obtainable, as they have culinary or health uses.

Details for dosing are at <"James' Planted Tank"> and the theoretical background to dGH and dKH <"are at the Krib"> and in <"Some handy facts about water">. Images are from James' Planted Tank.

View attachment 198269

You can have a play with the <"IFC calculator"> to see if you can get to those exact figures. This would give you some idea.

View attachment 198270
That will do. Neither calcium or magnesium carbonate (CaCO3 / MgCO3) <"are very soluble">, but at 1.5g in 10 litres may go into solution if dry dosed. Same applies to calcium sulphate (CaSO4.2H2O), not very soluble.

You also need to take the "Common Ion Effect" into account <"About making liquid gh booster">.

If you have hard, alkaline tap water? Definitely the easiest option <"Choosing Aquarium Plants For Soft And/Or Hard Water">. One advantage of hard tap water (or water that you add a <"cuttle bone etc"> to) is that all the CaCO3 has already gone into solution and you know <"you have ~17 dGH / 17 dKH">.

cheers Darrel
Thanks Darrel,
I do agree that the diy salt mix is economical, but if the product I use gives me the required Ca and Mg do you still think switching do diy salts will help in overcoming the deficiency ?
 
Hi all,
I do agree that the diy salt mix is economical, but if the product I use gives me the required Ca and Mg
The way I look at it is that <"all ions are the same in solution">, they don't know where they've come from. A Ca++ ion is the same if it came from the dissolution of limestone (CaCO3) or from <"calcium chloride (CaCl2.nH2O)"> solution etc. All the different compounds do is allow you to play with different ratios of ions. Personally I'm not going to pay pounds for a product that costs pennies.
My water is very hard 18GH and 16KH , mixing it with RO will provide me less but around same KH and GH values . I wanted a low Kh and some Gh.
Perfect, that does away with the requirement for potassium (bi) carbonate. You are going to potassium (K) with your fertiliser.

You can use a very small splosh of tap to give you 1 dKH / 1 dGH and then you just need calcium chloride (CaCl2.nH2O) and magnesium sulphate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) to give you the extra dGH.
but if the product I use gives me the required Ca and Mg do you still think switching do diy salts will help in overcoming the deficiency ?
You probably need a <"chelator for iron (Fe)"> that is better at a higher pH. Have a look at @Roland's tanks <"Soft water tank"> , but I'm not sure he keeps shrimps.

Personally if I wanted to keep Cherry Shrimps I'd probably go for more tap water in the mix, although it may limit what plants you can grow.

cheers Darrel
 
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I am constantly getting stunned growth on some of my rotala’s , help needed to find what might be the issue and how to fix it.
if your main concern is Rotala stunting then am quite confident to say that its not related to Ca or Mg issues at all. have you seen any changes when you reduce or increase the doses? does it look better on certain days compare to other days? what are the NO3 levels in the aquarium? do you have a option where you could dose Traces/Fe and NPK separately?
 
Yes but my filter flow is relatively high at 1000lph. I don’t have any other position to place the outlet without damaging the plants with flow. Some of the stems with deficiencies are directly under the light which receives the highest PAR.


purely as an experiment. take a few stems of Rotala and plant them in the front of the tank near the outflow, and check whether there is a difference between the Rotala in front and at the back of your tank.

Rotala Blood Red grows so fast you are constantly throwing new sideshoots away weekly, I wouldn't be bothered about 'damage' if that is indeed possible - i.e. in nature, Rotalas are found in streams, not just stagnant water?
My Rotala Blood Reds are in the direct path of a 1150l/hr Fluval 307 outflow (I'm using the Aquario straight nozzle for maximum force, not a Lily pipe that spreads and diffuses the flow :))
 
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Hi all,

Does it say which salts it contains? I'm still struggling with the price ~£15 for 200g.

cheers Darrel
We are seriously living in a mad world where similar effects (hardness etc.) can be obtained by the fraction of the price.

I'd vote for lack of Iron (by the hardness of water overall and inability to consume enough of Fe at the early stage of growth) covered by Darrel anyway.

@Vishnuvarthan
There are some Fe ferts which are making Fe available at higher alkalinity (EDDHA maybe?). If you're afraid of shrimp bodies decomposition, they can be kept in rather low GH (2-4-ish) while additional Ca is provided by bits of snails/molluscs shells - but they will raise GH anyway.
 
if your main concern is Rotala stunting then am quite confident to say that its not related to Ca or Mg issues at all. have you seen any changes when you reduce or increase the doses? does it look better on certain days compare to other days? what are the NO3 levels in the aquarium? do you have a option where you could dose Traces/Fe and NPK separately?
I did not experiment changing the gh kh+ dosage yet, I am just following the recommended dosage till now.

My NO3 levels are around 10PPM when I tested today.

I have APT complete and Zero as fertilisers, if that helps.
 
purely as an experiment. take a few stems of Rotala and plant them in the front of the tank near the outflow, and check whether there is a difference between the Rotala in front and at the back of your tank.

Rotala Blood Red grows so fast you are constantly throwing new sideshoots away weekly, I wouldn't be bothered about 'damage' if that is indeed possible - i.e. in nature, Rotalas are found in streams, not just stagnant water?
My Rotala Blood Reds are in the direct path of a 1150l/hr Fluval 307 outflow (I'm using the Aquario straight nozzle for maximum force, not a Lily pipe that spreads and diffuses the flow :))
Do u suggest if I change the outflow from front of the tank to the back corner ? Flowing directly toward the stems
 
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