GreggZ
Member
Add Xiaozhuang Wong to that list. APT Complete is roughly 7:3:15. K is twice NO3. Still there are some hard core deniers out there who swear that K must be kept very low. I can only speak for myself but I have not seen it.
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40 Breeder Dutchy High Tech + Low Tech Tanks
- Thread starter Freshflora
- Start date
We're missing the entire system when people make those claims whether it is high or low? I would never skimp on K, but that is just me.
Total N/P is related to fish load, how much you feed, decay, detritus, etc etc. Inert substrate means the substrate has very low Cation Exchange Capcity ... but the root may need assistance pulling nutrients from organic matter that is decaying around it? Or that has formed etc.
It needs K to do that. So someone may dose 5 N and 6 K but then the fish waste runs the N up to 10 ... well you need more K. Or some other part of your formula is not in balance for the particular metabolism of a plant so it needs a little bit more of something else -- it needs help to get that from whatever is not being dosed in the column.
Anyone dosing low K has to have an excellent understanding of how GH and K (and everything else for that matter) are interacting for a given species and further not need any nutrients from substrate.
My 2 cents.
plantnoobdude
Member
I may be the minority that dose very low potassium. My tank has gone as low as 0.66ppm K weekly alone and Low Ca Mg ( 5-10, and 2-4) And now it sits at 4ppm potassium dosed at water change, target dosed to tank water (every few weeks), and potassium is at 0.66 weekly. My nitrogen dosing stays within 1-2ppm N (5-8 No3)
I use rich substrate.
for a while I have been thinking about swapping my substrate to inert, somewhat inspired by @_Maq_ . I suspect it’ll be very fun. Especially since aqua soil gets dirty too easy, where as the sand is quite fine and will keep all dirt somewhat above the substrate.
I use rich substrate.
for a while I have been thinking about swapping my substrate to inert, somewhat inspired by @_Maq_ . I suspect it’ll be very fun. Especially since aqua soil gets dirty too easy, where as the sand is quite fine and will keep all dirt somewhat above the substrate.
Freshflora
Member
Yeah for sure, I was mostly listing off examples off the top off my head for people/instances where K is dosed higher than NO3 with inert substrates in response to Josh's comment. APT Complete is generally recommended to be paired with a rich substrate. Nonetheless, yes for sure Josh, nutrients can never be be looked at within a vacuum, and a holistic approach/view is always necessary. Every tank is different. My general framework that I'm working with is old Fluval Stratum, heavy fish load, high light, high CO2.
Did some reading and for my own notes + anyone that is interested:
-Tom Barr dosed his 120 dutch-inspired tank with a decent fish load with just KNO3 and KH2PO4 at a ratio of about 1.2K:NO3. One dose of his would typically add just about 15 NO3:11.5 K + another 6 or so K from GH booster.
-However, Tom has said that he has tested K levels all the way up to at least 50 K and found no ill effects, although I don't know where NO3 was kept during that testing.
-Notes from Barr Report Volume 1, Issue 9 2005 - Potassium Dynamics in Aquatic Macrophytes:
- It is reasonable to assume that aquatic plants will have relatively similar pattern of K uptake as crops due to aquatic plants' rapid growth rates. (Page 3.)
- In some crops, K is removed as much as 3 to 4 times as Nitrogen; however, many crops engage in "luxury uptake" where they uptake more than what is needed. (Page 4.)
- Some species of aquatic plants mainly uptake K through their leaves/the water column. (Pages 1 & 2.)
- The assimilation tables on a wide range of aquatic plants also showed a range of close to 1:1(Barr 2005). (Page 4.)
- K is very high in many waters, 100ppm in some water but most of Florida's lakes have a wide range from 2-50ppm. (Page 5.)
- #18: 321L Aquatic Garden - Eric Leung in 2001 dosed over 100ppm K in his award winning tank which had nice looking Ammania Gracilis.
- High levels of K do not appear to be the issue with respect to Calcium in aquatic ecosystems. Other possible explanations include excess Magnesium. (Page 5.)
- In the BarrReport's mineral assimilation article (August 2005), there was a discussion and table showing % NPK, this ratio was roughly 7:1:8 for some 19 aquatic plant species. (Page 8.)
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Same page! And I think there is also an issue in that people think just because they dose it, the plant has access to it.
Many people - myself included - have run K up to the 100s.
Here’s the thing, try it with fresh soil and try it with old. Try it with low GH. Try it with high. Quickly, you will see the threshold for inducing K related crinkling etc changes based on the other parameters.
@plantnoobdude puts K beautifully between Ca and Mg so presumably the plant can get that K (as we get K way outside that range of Ca and Mg as upper and lower bounds, we start to have to compensate with soil and we burn our substrate faster — and the lower Ca and Mg are, the more exacerbated these issues are (less K makes larger issues: a 1 ppm change in K in soft water has larger impact (you need to pay more attention) than in harder water).
N and P are different — I’ll draft a response later this eve hopefully to answer the question you asked me above!
No need to believe me though
.Idea is this:
Each species has a unique demand for all things nutrient wise. Even some species can make certain chemical compounds that others cannot to assist them with moderating heavy metals etc.
The plant does the tasks and to fulfil the tasks, it requires nutrients (all of them). It can take the nutrients from the soil via roots and the water column via shoots. The leaf acquisition of nutrients is different than the root (root is very good at getting nutrients from soil - with assistance of rhizosphere, etc) and Leaf is not as good (see the paper I linked above when talking about K). So all the N/P that comes in via water gets forced into the leaf as example - yet the roots don’t burn in Amazonia soil (for example) … these are different things.
K allows the exchange of those nutrients from roots up to grow.
So suppose N/P/Ca/Mg maybe some Cu and some B get into the leaf and all your CSM mix etc but the particular plant need a bit more Zn … it gets it from the substrate given you have enough K to facilitate (concentration etc). The thing is more on N/P, they have such a large influence on growth rates that if you lard in those N and P, you are driving growth and anything that is lacking needs to be topped up from soil. It’s possible you exhaust your soil of Zn and then have to play with micros to get it right. But if you don’t, then it will exhaust the next and the next until you chase the targets for the “time”.
That is why I said soil is the name of the game. Go inert, then keep targets and keep it immaculately clean - the moment you don’t, it begins to start skewing things potentially —- since inert has no CEC, the N will liberate into the column and even though rhizosphere can assist in N across root membrane to get the N into the tissue to top up the demand facilitated by K, if the bacteria make it N before the root gets it, it goes into Column and drives growth via leaves — it does that and then you need K to top off the difference (all the while hammering co2 properly), but your soil is inert so you have nothing to top off, so deficiency. And the deficiency and stunting you see is associate with whatever happens to be lacking. So you dose the lacking thing and rinse and repeat new deficiency.
All this to say, if you want to preserve soil, dosing lean will do so. But I mean, can dose EI and make gargantuan plants - many of us have dons 3-5x EI for fun. It works. But your precious substrate is gone in a few months.
EDIT: what you put in the water is forced to be used by the plant and if it is not correct proportions for the growth, the plant tops itself up from soil. If you dose less in water, then the bank account (substrate) doesn’t run dry as quickly (there is lower bound to what you can put in water). The soil bank doesn’t force itself into the root - roots are different.
Feel I have rambled but certainly don’t want to fill your journal with this stuff.
I’m keen to see how it all pans out
. I think everyone can agree you are really trying to squeeze out perfection - tank is lovely.
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Freshflora
Member
Thanks for the kind words again. Hmm interesting so if I follow you correctly you are asserting that dosing leaner in the water column leads to one's substrate lasting longer because the plant doesn't grow as quickly and thus doesn't uptake nutrients as quickly from the soil?Idea is this:
Each species has a unique demand for all things nutrient wise. Even some species can make certain chemical compounds that others cannot to assist them with moderating heavy metals etc.
The plant does the tasks and to fulfil the tasks, it requires nutrients (all of them). It can take the nutrients from the soil via roots and the water column via shoots. The leaf acquisition of nutrients is different than the root (root is very good at getting nutrients from soil - with assistance of rhizosphere, etc) and Leaf is not as good (see the paper I linked above when talking about K). So all the N/P that comes in via water gets forced into the leaf as example - yet the roots don’t burn in Amazonia soil (for example) … these are different things.
K allows the exchange of those nutrients from roots up to grow.
So suppose N/P/Ca/Mg maybe some Cu and some B get into the leaf and all your CSM mix etc but the particular plant need a bit more Zn … it gets it from the substrate given you have enough K to facilitate (concentration etc). The thing is more on N/P, they have such a large influence on growth rates that if you lard in those N and P, you are driving growth and anything that is lacking needs to be topped up from soil. It’s possible you exhaust your soil of Zn and then have to play with micros to get it right. But if you don’t, then it will exhaust the next and the next until you chase the targets for the “time”.
That is why I said soil is the name of the game. Go inert, then keep targets and keep it immaculately clean - the moment you don’t, it begins to start skewing things potentially —- since inert has no CEC, the N will liberate into the column and even though rhizosphere can assist in N across root membrane to get the N into the tissue to top up the demand facilitated by K, if the bacteria make it N before the root gets it, it goes into Column and drives growth via leaves — it does that and then you need K to top off the difference (all the while hammering co2 properly), but your soil is inert so you have nothing to top off, so deficiency. And the deficiency and stunting you see is associate with whatever happens to be lacking. So you dose the lacking thing and rinse and repeat new deficiency.
All this to say, if you want to preserve soil, dosing lean will do so. But I mean, can dose EI and make gargantuan plants - many of us have dons 3-5x EI for fun. It works. But your precious substrate is gone in a few months.
EDIT: what you put in the water is forced to be used by the plant and if it is not correct proportions for the growth, the plant tops itself up from soil. If you dose less in water, then the bank account (substrate) doesn’t run dry as quickly (there is lower bound to what you can put in water). The soil bank doesn’t force itself into the root - roots are different.
Feel I have rambled but certainly don’t want to fill your journal with this stuff.
I’m keen to see how it all pans out
Not only rate, but also size. Dosing under EI leads to massive leaves (unless you have loads of light etc I mean you can achieve small forms with EI but you need to try much harder than going leaner).
.Also there is other pieces that are simply me throwing ideas out: with the presence of more chelated metals, some species may need to grow different defences or more defences. I recall reading about certain chemicals the plant makes to protect itself from heavy metals. But again this entire paragraph is a bit fluffy and elusive … I think we can say, growth rates, sizes, and other potential things.
One of the ways that isn’t theoretically that you can observe this is dosing lean lean, then bam hit the tank with EI under high light. Suddenly the thing pearls like a soda pop Almost out of nowhere. Just means that more sugar is being made and so more “stuff” is going to be needed.
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Freshflora
Member
Thought I’d switch it up and post a video—I feel like videos are underutilized and are a much better way to appreciate a tank as they are closer to actually viewing it in person.
Freshflora
Member
Things are looking pretty dang good ATM.
Substrate's looking a bit more purplish than I thought, so I'm going to increase the green and/or white in my color spectrum.
Also, for those who are interested, checked in on my PH drop since I just refilled my CO2 tank. After 1 day degassed - 7.06. When lights come on - 5.52. So PH drop is about 1.54. Probably what would be considered nosebleed levels lol.
Took out the nymphae dwarf lotus, going to be trying some Erio Lineare there. Not looking forward to dealing with the buoyancy, but I'm planning on trying some sponge filter + plant weight shenanigans to help with the planting.
Went with some AR Mini Variegated where the hygro araguaia was. It's converting from emersed. This is what it looked like almost 2 weeks ago. So far in my experience with this and several times with the normal AR mini, AR seems to convert pretty quickly.
I'm officially growing some Downoi. I've wanted to grow this plant for at least 2 years, but had issues converting from emersed and tissue culture specimens in the past due to Amano Shrimp and false SAE wrecking it before it could convert.
The two outer plants totally abandoned all old growth and have thrown out new healthy side shoots adapted to my conditions, which is pretty cool to see. Wondering if it's normal for normal downoi to have some coloration in the middle, or if I may have gotten at least one portion of red downoi on accident?
The syn lago grande has grown a ton and is pretty close to being ready for its first trim. I've read that Syns do much better with uprooting and replanting than just trimming like a hedge, so not looking forward to that process too much lol. This is what it looked like on August 26th.
To the left of the lago grande is what I bought labeled as Macrandra Mini Type 4 Red. This is what it looked like pretty soon after being introduced in my tank. You can see the new portions growing in yellowish, which wasn't surprising because it was while I had the Finnex on the tank while waiting for the Chihiros.
This is what it looks like now. I've mowed it once, but I expected better color. Either it isn't Mini Type 4 Red (which I think it is more likely than not due to its colors when I put it in my tank), or it isn't getting enough light and possibly the trimming has caused it to lose color. Someone recently said to me that Macrandra can lose some color when it's trimmed like a hedge, which I've noticed on other species like Blood Red SG.
Going to try replanting tops this next time around to see what the color and leaf shape looks like after that. If it needs 200+ PAR at the substrate level to be red, I'll swap it out with something else. People who have grown macrandra, how much PAR does it need to really color up?
Substrate's looking a bit more purplish than I thought, so I'm going to increase the green and/or white in my color spectrum.
Also, for those who are interested, checked in on my PH drop since I just refilled my CO2 tank. After 1 day degassed - 7.06. When lights come on - 5.52. So PH drop is about 1.54. Probably what would be considered nosebleed levels lol.
Took out the nymphae dwarf lotus, going to be trying some Erio Lineare there. Not looking forward to dealing with the buoyancy, but I'm planning on trying some sponge filter + plant weight shenanigans to help with the planting.
Went with some AR Mini Variegated where the hygro araguaia was. It's converting from emersed. This is what it looked like almost 2 weeks ago. So far in my experience with this and several times with the normal AR mini, AR seems to convert pretty quickly.
I'm officially growing some Downoi. I've wanted to grow this plant for at least 2 years, but had issues converting from emersed and tissue culture specimens in the past due to Amano Shrimp and false SAE wrecking it before it could convert.
The two outer plants totally abandoned all old growth and have thrown out new healthy side shoots adapted to my conditions, which is pretty cool to see. Wondering if it's normal for normal downoi to have some coloration in the middle, or if I may have gotten at least one portion of red downoi on accident?
The syn lago grande has grown a ton and is pretty close to being ready for its first trim. I've read that Syns do much better with uprooting and replanting than just trimming like a hedge, so not looking forward to that process too much lol. This is what it looked like on August 26th.
To the left of the lago grande is what I bought labeled as Macrandra Mini Type 4 Red. This is what it looked like pretty soon after being introduced in my tank. You can see the new portions growing in yellowish, which wasn't surprising because it was while I had the Finnex on the tank while waiting for the Chihiros.
This is what it looks like now. I've mowed it once, but I expected better color. Either it isn't Mini Type 4 Red (which I think it is more likely than not due to its colors when I put it in my tank), or it isn't getting enough light and possibly the trimming has caused it to lose color. Someone recently said to me that Macrandra can lose some color when it's trimmed like a hedge, which I've noticed on other species like Blood Red SG.
Going to try replanting tops this next time around to see what the color and leaf shape looks like after that. If it needs 200+ PAR at the substrate level to be red, I'll swap it out with something else. People who have grown macrandra, how much PAR does it need to really color up?
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Freshflora
Member
Been close to a month since my last update, so I figured I would check back in. This is how the tank looked on Sunday.
Tank is looking a lot more full. Getting relatively close to a peak shot for this iteration of the tank. Got some Erio Lineare in the spot where the nymphaea used to be. Not sure how I like it the way I'm using it. Probably going to keep it for a while and mess around with it. My backup for the spot would be a nymphaea micrantha (tri-color lotus), which I'm almost positive would look great.
Picked up a sweet Anubias Pinto from a LFS on a whim the other week and put it in the shade near the back left for the time being.
The largest downoi has gotten pretty monstrous. The smallest was a side shoot that came off the largest specimen. I don't think I'd want it any larger, so I'll probably replace it with some side shoots ASAP.
Mermaid weed is as good as it can get without pushing higher PAR. I'm planning on trying to push the PAR a bit in the future when I don't have any lingering issues with any plants.
Pretty much the only plant I'm still struggling with in this tank is Pantanal. No matter what I've done, including having lowered the light a bit, I can get sideshoots from a stump to come in nice and then they will stunt a few days after being cut and replanted. I've messed with it now for a few months and am getting bored of it, so I'll probably replace it at this point with something else. The two things I think it could be is some type of CO2 stability issue that I won't be able to pinpoint until I get an in-tank double junction PH meter or a flow issue. The corner the Pantanal is in is the lowest flow area of the tank.
I let the Rotala Macrandra Mini Type 4 Red bush grow in a good bit, and then uprooted and replanted some tops, selecting for the nicest-colored and most healthy tops. Coloration is better now, also as good as it will get for the plant without higher PAR. After replanting:
The two slight issues I'm dealing with right now besides the Pantanal are a slight increase in GSA and a little bit of GDA. The GDA is very minor (could go without scraping), and you wouldn't notice it unless you got right in front of the tank and looked closely along the glass, but I don't want any of that at all before pushing light levels higher, as it's an indication that something in the system isn't completely right.
There you can see the GSA. Not a big deal, but it's usually less than this. I trimmed off some of the most affected leaves last night during a water change/maintenance. The bush needs a replanting/major trimming any day now anyways, so that will hold it over until then. Recently heard Dennis Wong say he almost never uproots and replants his lobelia, which is how I have always dealt with it, so I may try just trimming it this time. I think it's best to avoid uprooting whenever possible, as it is more disruptive to the tank. Uprooting and replanting is still very important though despite being more disruptive, as it allows you to get rid of old plant material that adds to the waste in the tank, so those are interesting benefits to balance.
Currently been raising my PO4 and K by 10% every two weeks. Right now I'm at 30-9-35 and about 0.9 Fe. However, it's important to remember I do two 50-60% water changes a week, so my water column levels are significantly lower than they would be with just one 50% water change weekly. My water column levels assuming zero uptake are around 40-12-47. Planning on lowering NO3 other ferts proportionally because of the slight GDA.
@erwin123 The syn lago grande has been a pretty great midground plant for me. Needs to be uprooted in my tank about once a month or so, give or take a week. Doesn't get too big in these dimensions.
Hope those who celebrate it had a good Halloween! Below is what my celebrating amounted to
.
Tank is looking a lot more full. Getting relatively close to a peak shot for this iteration of the tank. Got some Erio Lineare in the spot where the nymphaea used to be. Not sure how I like it the way I'm using it. Probably going to keep it for a while and mess around with it. My backup for the spot would be a nymphaea micrantha (tri-color lotus), which I'm almost positive would look great.
Picked up a sweet Anubias Pinto from a LFS on a whim the other week and put it in the shade near the back left for the time being.
The largest downoi has gotten pretty monstrous. The smallest was a side shoot that came off the largest specimen. I don't think I'd want it any larger, so I'll probably replace it with some side shoots ASAP.
Mermaid weed is as good as it can get without pushing higher PAR. I'm planning on trying to push the PAR a bit in the future when I don't have any lingering issues with any plants.
Pretty much the only plant I'm still struggling with in this tank is Pantanal. No matter what I've done, including having lowered the light a bit, I can get sideshoots from a stump to come in nice and then they will stunt a few days after being cut and replanted. I've messed with it now for a few months and am getting bored of it, so I'll probably replace it at this point with something else. The two things I think it could be is some type of CO2 stability issue that I won't be able to pinpoint until I get an in-tank double junction PH meter or a flow issue. The corner the Pantanal is in is the lowest flow area of the tank.
I let the Rotala Macrandra Mini Type 4 Red bush grow in a good bit, and then uprooted and replanted some tops, selecting for the nicest-colored and most healthy tops. Coloration is better now, also as good as it will get for the plant without higher PAR. After replanting:
The two slight issues I'm dealing with right now besides the Pantanal are a slight increase in GSA and a little bit of GDA. The GDA is very minor (could go without scraping), and you wouldn't notice it unless you got right in front of the tank and looked closely along the glass, but I don't want any of that at all before pushing light levels higher, as it's an indication that something in the system isn't completely right.
There you can see the GSA. Not a big deal, but it's usually less than this. I trimmed off some of the most affected leaves last night during a water change/maintenance. The bush needs a replanting/major trimming any day now anyways, so that will hold it over until then. Recently heard Dennis Wong say he almost never uproots and replants his lobelia, which is how I have always dealt with it, so I may try just trimming it this time. I think it's best to avoid uprooting whenever possible, as it is more disruptive to the tank. Uprooting and replanting is still very important though despite being more disruptive, as it allows you to get rid of old plant material that adds to the waste in the tank, so those are interesting benefits to balance.
Currently been raising my PO4 and K by 10% every two weeks. Right now I'm at 30-9-35 and about 0.9 Fe. However, it's important to remember I do two 50-60% water changes a week, so my water column levels are significantly lower than they would be with just one 50% water change weekly. My water column levels assuming zero uptake are around 40-12-47. Planning on lowering NO3 other ferts proportionally because of the slight GDA.
@erwin123 The syn lago grande has been a pretty great midground plant for me. Needs to be uprooted in my tank about once a month or so, give or take a week. Doesn't get too big in these dimensions.
Hope those who celebrate it had a good Halloween! Below is what my celebrating amounted to
.Attachments
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GreggZ
Member
Nice update!!!
Tank is starting to look really spectacular as it fills in. Great mix of healthy colorful plants.
Well done my friend!!
Tank is starting to look really spectacular as it fills in. Great mix of healthy colorful plants.
Well done my friend!!
milesjames
Member
Interesting what you say about the lobelia. I have always trimmed and tbh the side roots are getting too much now. I'm going to have to top and replant for health purposes.
Given their size it'd going to be a very busy weekend job 🙄
Given their size it'd going to be a very busy weekend job 🙄
Freshflora
Member
Yeah I believe one of Vin Kutty’s journals pointed me towards the uprooting and replanting method for it, because it already gets super duper bushy on its own without any encouragement. It’s definitely a good way of dealing with it.
Thank you! You should try doing some straight trimming of your Rotala SG, I was surprised when you said recently you only ever uproot and replant. It’s impossible to get it as dense with uprooting as it gets with trimming, and as I’m sure you know it handles it really well.
GreggZ
Member
LOL I don't want it any denser. It branches so much every so often I peel off an outer layer and toss it. But remember this a big plant in my tank, 24" + tall and it just propagates constantly without any help at all.
Freshflora
Member
Fair enough! I honestly don’t think I actually realized until yesterday what your tank dimensions are. You must deal with some absolutely huge plants.
GreggZ
Member
LOL yes I have some monsters. Every once in a while I pull a group and post a picture. You might like this.
Freshflora
Member
Yeah holy cow, that plant looks like it’s more than half your body length lol!
Freshflora
Member
I’ll do a more in depth update soon, but just thought I’d post a quick pic of the tank after maintenance today since it’s been a while and say Happy New Year/New Year’s Eve ukaps!
DudeFromPantanal
Member
How big that Echinodorus Aflame can get? never seen one with a “traditional” Echinodorus size…
