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So LED's don't work??

Plunket

Plunket

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2009
Messages
81
Hi all

Just wondered if anyone had noticed this from TGM website?
"Why We Don't Stock LED Lighting APR 19 2011
The Arrival of LEDs

At The Green Machine we are always on the look out for new and innovative products, so when LEDs came to the market we were very excited at the prospect of a more economical lighting solution for the planted aquarium.

LEDs were heralded as a miracle solution for aquarium hobbyists and have been marketed as a money saving device, despite being significantly more expensive than many other types of lighting.

Unfortunately, we have recently been inundated with customers who have purchased expensive LEDs and been extremely disappointed with the results, to the extent that they have had to buy a standard light to replace their LED. The frustrations and disappointments of our customers have encouraged us to produce this brief summary of why we don’t stock LEDs at the present time.

Why We Don’t Stock LEDs

At the time of writing, we do not stock any LEDs. This is because, despite our high hopes, no LED that we have used so far has satisfied our standards. We remain hopeful that LEDs will continue to evolve, and we are actively searching for satisfactory LEDs for the planted tank enthusiast but unfortunately at the moment we have yet to come across any that are suitable for planted tank use - even though many are advertised in a way that implicitly suggests that they are!

Our Policy: Only products that work: Try it, Test it and Try it again!

At The Green Machine the quality and functionally of our products is very important to us, because your satisfaction is important to us. Too many times we talk to people who have been sold a product that simply does not work. We are not the same as other retailers: we refuse to sell inferior products.

To make sure that all our products satisfy the TGM standard, we actively trial them – if it doesn’t pass our tests, it doesn’t get in to TGM! We have trialled several different LEDs and so far we have not found a single one that satisfies our standards.

Our Independence

One of the benefits of our reviews is that, unlike magazines and other publications who rely almost entirely on advertising revenue to survive, we are entirely independent. We test products for one reason and one reason only: to ensure that the quality, effectiveness and suitability of the product are good enough for our customers’ aquascapes and planted tanks.

Conclusion

Whilst the principle of a more economical, ‘greener’ lighting system is very attractive to us we have decided, based on the results of our trials, not to stock any LEDs at all until they are further developed because we were not satisfied with their performance. We hope that LEDs will continue to develop and eagerly await the day when they might become a sound investment for the planted tank enthusiast. Until that day we will not stock any LEDs. But rest assured... the moment we find one that we feel is good enough for our customers we will let you know!

Summary

Whilst LEDs may be sufficient to light an unplanted aquarium we feel that they are not currently sufficient for serious plant growth. Therefore if you want a beautiful planted tank with healthy plants, we would suggest that you do not use LEDs of any make at the moment.
There is a potential exception to this - LEDs may be suitable for use on very shallow aquariums, with low-light plants like mosses, although we feel that they are not likely to achieve exceptional results even in this case.
T5s, T8s and metal halides all work very well and can grow plants successfully. They are also a fraction of the price of LEDs, which can be very expensive.
We remain hopeful that suitable LEDs will be developed in time, but our advice until then is to invest your money in things that actually work! LEDs are very expensive because they are still being developed – so when you buy an LED you are basically paying a premium for imperfection/technology ‘in the rough’!
Beware of unscrupulous manufacturers and retailers who suggest that LEDs are a miracle solution for the planted aquarium!
We would love to find a suitable LED and we look forward with great excitement to the day that we do, so if any manufacturer would like us to trial an LED that they believe is suitable for the planted tank then please contact us!"
Click to expand...
Is it just me, or doesn’t this fly in the face of all the current evidence? I have 3 x GroBeam 1000’s over my 4 x 1.5 x 2, and can only concur with the positive feedback provided by George and others elsewhere under the Lighting section – my tank is looking better that ever.

Given all this evidence, it seems a bit rich for a company to put this kind of commentary in the public domain...or am I missing something?

The cynic in me suspects perhaps some concern over diminishing sales of replacement bulbs :angelic: ?
 
Do they grow plants? They certainly do, I grow them in a 27" deep aquarium with Aquaray 500s.

However do they grow plants on "par"(te hee) with what the people at TGM expect... that might very well be a different expectation.

They do have every right not to stock the LEDs if they do not wish to sell them. They have also tested the likes of TMC and Arcadia products on their own tanks, I have seen the tanks with them on and I believe the marketing picture for the arcadia T8 replacement LEDs was over one of their tanks. It certianly looked like "Through a childs eyes" anyway.

It is not like there arent plenty of other avenues to go down if anyone wants to purchase LEDS.

This side of the hobby is not the great technology innovator, it is the reef keeping enthusiasts who create the demand and have cumulative buying power that pushes development and leads to break throughs in the likes of LED. I know from personal experiance that certain products like Ecolamps are punching thier weight and producing great results with the most demanding SPS corals. The planted freshwater side however always seems to be an afterthought.

All in all if they have tested some commonly available products and do not feel that they are giving the same standard of results as other lighting sources then surely it is a good thing to voice that feeling? They are a niche market (planted tanks) and no tacky stuff. They need to believe in the products they are selling surely.

My gripe with some of the LED manufactures is that they initially were selling these products without any evidence from test tanks, but on the basis of theory and cost savings. It was down to a few customers and retailers who took the investment plunge. There was massive sceptisism from the Reef hobby.
 
Plus ada don't sell a LED unit....

Sin bin or naughty step?? Haha

George grew plants with them, and well too! Being the leading UK plant people they kniow there stuff so I'm sure its justified, and if there not happy with LED's then why sell them, its good work ethics I spose.
 
I cant imagine TGM would turn down selling £400 plus LED sets for the sake of a few bulb sales. I thought most people on here would buy bulbs from lampspecs anyway after all the threads on them? Ive not tried them myself but when I compared what I needed to grow HC at ground level on a 90x45x45cm i went with a Solar 1. Lots cheaper on the initial purchase than 3 panels of LED's plus even then there was no guarantee the light would be strong enough to reach the bottom... Admittedly the solar1 will cost more in electricity in the long run but at least if the bulb goes I can replace it.

They look great for smaller tanks or larger tanks with low light plants in but im holding fire until the technology improves...
 
Your have a solar one! Maaaan I want one! They look so fresh!

how noticeable is it on the elec? How long do bulbs last ect?
 
they are styled very nicely :) I haven't really noticed anything as it replaced the roof lights on that side of the room so they are never turned on which saves 120W towards running it plus the old t5's were 96W.

They say to replace the bulbs at 1 year but I havent done mine yet, will just run it and see what happens. At the moment it still grows HC in inert sand at the bottom of the tank so im quite happy
 
No argument about TGM being a major player in the planted scene...I guess I'm just puzzled by why they would so vocally denounce a technology that has been proven by some reputable people, which clearly has a place in the hobby and which pretty much everyone agrees is getting better and better. Surely, if you're in the business of supplying specialist kit, you want to at least have a finger in the pie, so to speak? Just seems a bit dogmatic really.
 
Hc in in inert sand :) quitcha bragging haha ;)

Plunket, marketing reasons, ADA don't sell a LED unit?
 
Only having read what the quote from the OP (and not searched any further on TGM's website) I would say that's a disappointing statement from them. Not disappointing from the fact of acuracy but rather for how it says it and what it doesn't say.

They state the same things repeatedly (we don't think they work / we hope they will /etc) without giving any indication of why they think they don't work. I have no opinion of LEDs for planted tanks (other than WRT their cost) but TMC seem to be suggesting their opinion is more valid than magazine reviews but offer nothing to justify their opinion. "We think they don't work and you should only listen to us."

Maybe they offer a more in depth appraisal of LEDs elsewhere.
 
They don't "believe" in ei either, let them lose their own wars.
 
I've got an ADA Solar 1 bought from TGM, it looks super swish, I adore it BUUUT - ever since i've owned it I've struggle with Algae. My theory is that there is too much light - not enough CO2 etc so I raised it up, it worked - algae dissapeared :thumbup: but then my plants went into decline and I started to get headaches every night since my tank is in the living room. Now, i've done all the usual of lift it up, drop it down, add more CO2 and all that game and i'm about right now. This is not to say that it's ADA's fault, i'm sure it would be the same with all halides but my next purchase will be an AquaGro ND1000 to go with my current one and 2 500s as they are controllable so I can place them however high I want and they cheaper to run. For me, long term investment is a bonus because my income fluctuates, so when I have a good month I can splash out, when things are tight I don't have to worry about the electricity bill :thumbup: I doubt it's that noticeable but if you spread it over 8-9 years then i'm sure it's a saving and it's one less thing to worry about, plus, replacing my NA bulb is about £100 or something, thats just not going to happen!

I'm all for aesthetics but for once in my life, i'm gonna choose function over form :wideyed:

The one ND1000 i've got works great and looks pretty swish the way I had it set up. Here's a tank that Graeme Edwards setup and grew on using it, he loved the ability to start the tank off on half light and gradually increase it as the plants require.
1-2-GROW-wk2.jpg


Theres no disputing LED's ability to grow plants, just look at what George has done with them!
5605724816_e9b71c3aa2_b.jpg
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14467&hilit=scree&start=90#p160436

I currently use the ND1000 over my vivarium coz it creates almost no heat and is really powerful, it's perfect.

Why wouldn't you stock something that has proven success at keeping both corals and plants? I dunno!
 
Cheers Dan, didn't realise it was a oner to replace the bulbs!

The 1st pic the light actually doesn't look to bad, and I'm sure therell besome being produced with aesthetics in mind in the near future, depends on you taste I suppose.

Sorry to keep touching on ADA haha but I wonder what they have to say about LED's and any future LED fixtures? Has anyone found any info on that?

Cheers
 
I think some of what is being suggested is that some people want to wait until LED gets to that more perfected level before investing. A bit like T5s in the early 2000s, it took half a decade and theyve plateauxed.

In 8-9 years there are going to be so much sexier lighting, led will probably advanced to where it needs to, there could possibly be plasma.

Still rising leccy bills is an issue now and from someone who works in the energy industry, it will keep going up above inflation. That is what happens when a country has to diversify its energy mix and not be over reliant on gas when the suppliers of that gas are not our best of friends.
 
I have been using LEDs for a while now, and since seeing the one at the London show it made even more sense.

After seeing George's tank on the forum, the thread that Dan quoted, it seems silly not to replace expensive lights with leds.

Too much light is an issue, and the tiles can be ramped up or down, and have a long warranty. Also, energy is not cheap.

TGM may have it's reasons to not stock LEDs but I am not seeing it being a valid one .


.
 
Dan, what's the stand used in the first link?

Of topic I know.

They can fight the tide as much as they like I suspect it'll only lose them ground long term, "evolve or die" springs to mind.
 
TMG, at least their macro nutrient version came out from a conversation Claus and myself had in 1998.
I think it is a business reason perhaps, later, I'd assume they will use LED's for some applications.

I'm waiting for a decent reasonable priced unit in the USA, plenty of very nice DIY versions can be done.........some of the locals here have cooked up some really neat stuff, some are doing the spectra graphs for various LED's.
We have a local light maker Catalina Aquarium in Sacramento where I'm at.

So I think in and year or two.....the market will be riper.

there's little doubt as to the ability to grow plants..........but to have a company make a nice one suited for plants? Not really there yet IMO. The colors from FL's are still nicer for many, this will change through.
 
No one can justifiably deny the effectiveness of TMC LEDs.

The evidence from many planted tank owners now using them speaks for itself.

This was taken recently. Note the pearling.

5642829355_4ee5d2bc58_z.jpg


I would be interested to hear what LED units they and their customers used, and in what configuration. This would add considerably more credibility to the article.
 
I would be interested to hear what LED units they and their customers used, and in what configuration. This would add considerably more credibility to the article.
Click to expand...

They have tested the same TMC tiles as well as the Arcadia T8 replacements. Perhaps others, but im not sure on that.

TMC tiles are not rated so well with Reef keepers compared to the LED competitor units from China/Honkong (Ecolamps and Maxspec), but that is chiefly down to PAR which is not the same issue for planted tanks.

I am a little iffy on the colour rendition of my TMC 500s, but then that is over a depth of 27". How do you find the colours from your plants and fish without the aid of supplementary lights when you take photos?
 
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