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10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI time?

tyrophagus

tyrophagus

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2010
Messages
244
Location
Swindon
I have a 10 day old 180l tank. I bought pre-cycled filter media from LFS and the substrate is ADA amazonia granules with power sand special. I have excellent flow (eheim 2076 + vortech mp10) and am using CO2 at about 10 bubbles/sec which keeps my drop checker at a green to light yellow colour. My lighting is TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output for 4 hours per day and ramping up and down for 2 hours before and after max output period.

I initially had green water but that has since resolved. I have done at least 50% every other day water changes and when I can manage to I have done daily water changes. My intial NH4 levels were sky high >10 but have since dropped to 0.5 (today).

I add 10 squirts of ADA Brighty K per day + 10mls Easycarbo.

My Crypts are doing well, very few leaves have melted. The Marselia has put up many leaves and there are evidence of some runners. The Pogostemon stellata and Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata ''Cuba'' seem to be growing slowly but some of their stems look a bit yellow and glassy.

I pruned back the Hemianthus micranthemoides to try make it spread into a compact growth but found that days afterwards the remaining stems and leaves seemed to die and fade, I have lost 60% of the plant. The Heteranthera zosterifolia I planted purely to add to the biomass during startup has had areas along the stems turn glassy, then melt away. The same happened to my Rotala sp "green" which after I trimmed it mid stem and replanted the stems leaving the cut portion in situ, basically turned to mush.

So today given my ammonia levels are lower (0.5) I have increased the light intensity to 52% (from 45%).

I have been wondering if the nutrient levels may be wrong for the stem plants as those rooted in the substrate seem fine.

My local water company can only provide the following parameters for my tap water.

ph 7.2
conductivity 600 us
sulphate 25
nitrate 41
nitrite 0
TH (cac03) 348

Should I switch to the EI method (I am using Brighty K and Easycarbo based on some excellent help and advice from TGM where I bought my tank) to see if I have a nutrient deficiency. It appears to me that my tap water has plenty of nitrates. Does that matter if I start adding more??

I could buy some cheap plants to increase the planting level.

So the plan if I use EI from what I can understand from Clives article is:

EI for 40 gallons (160l)

Sunday – 50% or more Water Change then dose [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4]
Monday – 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B
Tuesday - [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4]
Wednesday - 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B
Thursday - [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4]
Friday – Rest
Saturday - Rest

However I would like to do 50% water changes every 2 days for the next 2 weeks at least as I'm worried that the presence of even low levels of ammonia will cause algae (although keeping the light levels low will help). Can anyone suggest alterations to the dosages to reflect what is needed with that many water changes and a tank that has not got that many growing plants in yet.

I was thinking of just doing a 50% water change before dosing the macros and keeping the dosage the same. I'd also continue the Easycarbo daily.

thanks

Graeme

this photo is today taken with a camera phone so excuse the quality

Mobile%20Photo%202%20May%202010%2016%2001%2029.jpg
 
Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

i love it 😀 .looks so natural.well done mate :clap: .
can't help with advice though 🙁 .

edit.....i missed your journal 😳 .just had a look.
 
Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

Thanks Neil. It will be interesting to see what it grows into. I have a feeling the wood will disappear to a large degree which is not want I want really.
 
Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

tyrophagus said:
I have a 10 day old 180l tank.
Click to expand...

tyrophagus said:
I pruned back the Hemianthus micranthemoides to try make it spread into a compact growth but found that days afterwards the remaining stems and leaves seemed to die and fade,
Click to expand...

you've pruned way to early for HM. 10 days isn't even the honey moon period for HM, especialy it's farmed version from tropica.

if it has died, re plant the cuttings.
 
Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

Thanks for that saintly, i read somewhere afterwards that I should not have done that. Do you think my problems stem from pruning to early and not allowing the plants to establish well. Would this have weakened the rotala for instance?

Perhaps I should stick to the advice I was given and just continue the brighty k and easycarbo.

I have replanted the cuttings I have and they seem to be doing ok but they are small!
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

tyrophagus

Brightly K is potassimum, your not adding any Nitrogen or phosphates or trace - these are within you tap water but due to the plants uptake of nutrients these levels may have been depleated by the middle of the week so by the end of the week the plants may be dewindling - if it were me start E.I and dose to accordingly to your plants requirements, keep dosing the easy carbo.

Regards
Paul.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

tyrophagus said:
Would this have weakened the rotala for instance?
Click to expand...

rotala is much more robust than HM. This will survive in any conditions and will take some major cutting to see it off. HM is much more delicate and needs time to settle in.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Flyfisherman said:
tyrophagus

Brightly K is potassimum, your not adding any Nitrogen or phosphates or trace - these are within you tap water but due to the plants uptake of nutrients these levels may have been depleated by the middle of the week so by the end of the week the plants may be dewindling - if it were me start E.I and dose to accordingly to your plants requirements, keep dosing the easy carbo.

Regards
Paul.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul

If I'm doing 50% water changes every 24 - 48hrs would these nutrients still be depleted. I imagine the trace would become depleted quickly but do you think there will be enough nitrogen and phosphate just within the tap water?
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

tyrophagus said:
Flyfisherman said:
tyrophagus

Brightly K is potassimum, your not adding any Nitrogen or phosphates or trace - these are within you tap water but due to the plants uptake of nutrients these levels may have been depleated by the middle of the week so by the end of the week the plants may be dewindling - if it were me start E.I and dose to accordingly to your plants requirements, keep dosing the easy carbo.

Regards
Paul.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul

If I'm doing 50% water changes every 24 - 48hrs would these nutrients still be depleted. I imagine the trace would become depleted quickly but do you think there will be enough nitrogen and phosphate just within the tap water?
Click to expand...

tyrophagus
I would not say depletted but weakend as you are diluting the quantity of fertz every time you do a water change, as for the nitrogen / phosphate within the tap water, try and obtain a regional water report - this will detail water parimeters.

Regards
paul.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

tyrophagus said:
...My Crypts are doing well, very few leaves have melted. The Marselia has put up many leaves and there are evidence of some runners. The Pogostemon stellata and Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata ''Cuba'' seem to be growing slowly but some of their stems look a bit yellow and glassy.

I pruned back the Hemianthus micranthemoides to try make it spread into a compact growth but found that days afterwards the remaining stems and leaves seemed to die and fade, I have lost 60% of the plant. The Heteranthera zosterifolia I planted purely to add to the biomass during startup has had areas along the stems turn glassy, then melt away. The same happened to my Rotala sp "green" which after I trimmed it mid stem and replanted the stems leaving the cut portion in situ, basically turned to mush.
Click to expand...
These are classic symptoms of poor CO2. Your problem could be either the timing of your gas, flow/distribution or too much light. I am unable to assess your lighting at this time, mainly because I have absolutely no idea what "TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output" means. This sounds suspiciously like Klingon Anti-Matter weaponology. :shock: If I had a universal translator I might be able to determine it's equivalence in terms of T5 wattage or micromoles of PAR, but, in any case I'd be willing to bet that whatever it means, the plants are telling you that they think it means the intensity is too high.

EI cannot fix carbon starvation, so I'd suggest you look at the above factors. As Flyfisherman quite rightly points out, Brighty K is essentially Potassium (K) + water. Yellowing of leaves typically means poor Nitrogen. You really cannot trust what a water report or a test kit tells you about Nitrogen, and Nitrogen is the second most important element - right behind Carbon. However, I assume the plants are rooted in AS Amazonia which is high in NPK - and the ammonia levels (if the kit can be trusted) shows high - which means there should be no shortage of Nitrogen - so this is all a bit strange. A preliminary analysis indicates therefore, that the most likely culprit is that you have exceeded the lighting threshold for sustainability.

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

ceg4048 said:
These are classic symptoms of poor CO2. Your problem could be either the timing of your gas, flow/distribution or too much light. I am unable to assess your lighting at this time, mainly because I have absolutely no idea what "TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output" means. This sounds suspiciously like Klingon Anti-Matter weaponology. :shock: If I had a universal translator I might be able to determine it's equivalence in terms of T5 wattage or PAR, but, in any case I'd be willing to bet that whatever it means, the plants are telling you that they think it means the intensity is too high.
Click to expand...

Clive they are LED lights - here is a link. http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/planted-tank/grobeam-1000.asp at 100% output they produce 800 lumens which I understands means little because we need to know PAR.

The lights increase to their set maximum output (currently limited to about 50% of their total capacity) over 2 hours from 12pm. They remain at their 50% output from 2pm to 6pm then decrease and switch off 2 hours later at 8pm.

Even though my C02 bubble counter is bubbling to fast to count the bubbles I do find that the co2 drop checker does not turn yellow, it stays a light green colour. CO2 starts 2 hours before the lights come on and stops 1 hour before they switch off.

I have excellent flow. at least 10x via ext filter and vortech powerhead.

I have no fauna. Should I turn up the CO2 and dim the lights, or just turn up the CO2? Dimming the lights seems counter intuitive as I'm trying to get the plants to grow. Does a limited nutrient cause damage to the plant at a cellular level when lighting is high?

Glad your on the case Clive :thumbup:, your Vulcanesque ability to explain with reason and logic always makes for interesting reading. 😀
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Yeah, unfortunately there is zero correlation between Lumens and PAR. Lumens are all about how the human eye sees, which is in a very narrow band centered around green. Plants see blue and red equally as well as green, a much broader band of energy.

I didn't get a very good look at your diffusion technique, so if you are dumping lots of gas into the tank and not quite getting it to go yellow there may be a problem with either the diffuser position relative to your flow, or, there may be a leak in the line. Mix some washing up liquid with water and either spray it on the lines/connections or use a small paint brush while the gas is on. If you get bubbles forming that identifies the leak.

Again, you might have plenty of flow but it may be inefficiently distributed. As a general rule, try to line up the outlets so that they point in the same general direction.

I would definitely dim the lights as a first step in troubleshooting, and increase the gas injection as a second step.
A plant is s factory where chemicals are combined on an assembly line to make food. The chemicals are Carbon+NPK+traces, and the speed at which the line moves is determined by the light. More light means a faster moving line and faster production. However, if the line moves too quickly, and if there are shortages of raw ingredients, then the final assembled product will be flawed. Therefore the answer to your question is a resounding yes. Too much light causes destruction at a cellular level when the light is too high.

By a wide margin, most of the CO2 we inject goes straight out the window so we really have to think about our injection technique. Play with the placement of the diffuser and see if you can get the checker to turn yellow faster. By lowering the intensity, you will give yourself more breathing room.

Live long, and prosper. :wave:

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Ok so I've dropped the lighting to 25% of the maximum output, no leaks in the co2, >10 bubbles per sec but have a cheap bubble counter (do they make different sized bubbles the different types?). Going to hold off on ferts and just continue brighty k and easycarbo.

I'll let you know what happens. Thanks everyone for their input.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

"TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output"
clive these refer to tropical marine centre's LED lights

are these the plant ones or the marine?
matt
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Hmm, so it seems. Well, Tropical Marine Centre needs to buy themselves a PAR meter so they can rate their products properly...

It really doesn't matter whether they are Marine or otherwise. Without an energy frame of reference, or a way to determine the quantum yield of the bulbs it's going to be hell on wheels trying to determine the proper lighting levels for any tank. :?

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Pfk magazine did an article using a par meter a couple of months back
think they used the marine ones and they had quite high readings
if memory serves me well
can look for it if it helps
matt
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Yes! That would be very useful mate, if you wouldn't mind... 😀

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Pfk say that at the surface they produced 585 umols and at 60cm deep
this droped to 130 umols
they say the marine White recorded a higher par so maybe the
growbeam are slightly less but pfk were measuring them for coral growth
not plants
hope this helps
matt
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Yes it does help. Thanks for that mate. :thumbup:

As suspected, nearly 600 micro moles at the surface is quite a bit of light. Seems too high to be true actually, but lets take it at face value.

Here are some very rough numbers for comparison; a typical 50W T5 outputs somewhere around 100 micromoles and by about 20 inches down away from the bulb, the energy drops to around 40 micromoles.

If we assume that half power of your Phasor weapon delivers half the PAR then this is on the order of 300 micromoles. So that's about 3 of the equivalent T5 bulbs, or 150W T5 when the unit is operating at half power.

The Light Compensation Point (LCP) for most plants is somewhere between 35 and 85 micromoles, depending on the species. LCP is considered the minimum required light. Any more light drives plants to higher growth rates, which has to be supported by appropriate nutritional increase.

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

These are the planted tank units, not the marine units.

You can measure light in mols? I thought that was a unit of molecular weight! Now I'm feeling out of depth :shock: .

My lights are 40cm from the surface of the tank and the tank is 45cm deep, the substrate is approx 5cm - 15cm deep.

I have reduced the lights to 25% of max output for 5 hours with a 1 hour ramp up and down either side. lights on for total 7 hrs.
 
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