Controlling CO2 levels efficiency

[ian_m]

I do feel you are overcomplicating things, especially for so little anticipated gain (sorry what was the advantage again?), compared to what everyone else does, as well exposing yourself to killing all your fish if your boost diffuser system jams on.

I have had numerous timer failures in my years, most common is complete timer death, no display nothing. Does lead to algae obviously if CO2 timer fails. But second most common failure I have encountered is stopping of timer with output in what ever state is was on. One time I emptied 1 litre of EI macro solution into my tank giving 300ppm nitrate for a couple of days, no issues as nitrate is generally not toxic at these levels, contrary to popular incorrect knowledge. Second time it was a liquid carbon dump and this did kill fish and melt plants. I have much better timer control now.

If my CO2 failed to on, due to timer failure, then I would just end up with 30ppm CO2 24/7. Fine. Just a waste of CO2 during non light hours.

Couple of other issues I have been pondering on are:

- How will you know when to stop your boost diffuser (10 minutes ? 25 minutes ?) as, if it works, you will have a fairly limited time window, 5 minutes maybe, before you will start gassing your fish.
- CO2 is not very soluble in water and I suspect you will not be able to get enough CO2 to dissolve from a conventional diffuser into the water in order to raise the CO2 of 500litres in 30minutes as you hope for.

Sorry not convinced your idea gains anything helpful other than yet another way to kill your fish more easily.

 

[Zeus.]

man, is it just me because I'm not British? I can't understand a word Zeus says. I read some of his posts two times and still nothing is making any sence.

Sorry Dyslexic m8

Ok took some time with this so hopefully makes sense

(Made some progress with graphs I had planned, Henery’s law etc, etc, then slept on it and subconscious mind was busy all night!! And took it to the next level )

Long post warning!!! Sorry

In Toms classic Puddle of mud there was no flow (at first) and the tank thrived – Low tech tank OFC. High tech tanks users tend to aim for x10+ turnover as that’s what works well OFC.

Its all about the speeding up the mixing of nutrients when we play ‘God’ in the high tech tank because of the effect of Mass Diffusivity of Mass in water in being very very very slow

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Comparison of diffusion of CO2 in Air and water for example-

In this comparison we assume the CO2 travels in a straight line ( which OFC it does not. There’s random movement and a concentration gradient, but to make it simple we will ignore that)

Carbon dioxide in air has a diffusion coefficient of 16 mm2/s
so for a tank 1.6m long in air would take 100secs to reach other side off tank

But
Carbon dioxide in water its diffusion coefficient is 0.0016 mm2/s
so for 1.6m tank would take 1,000, 000 seconds or 11.5 days

That’s 10,000 times slower so in a high tech tank we need good turnover, (x10) to mix the CO2 and nutrients when we play ‘God’ over our ecosystem

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So what I’m postulating is that this x10 turnover may not be needed all the time! and that this turnover is decreasing efficiency when on 24/7, as the CO2 is being lost faster at the surface, we may only need the x10 turnover for times when we want to drastically change the concentrations and mix anything, eg When we want to change the Waters Carbon Dioxides Concentration ([CO2]aqu) for plant growth before the lights come on.

So ‘say’ you have turnover rate of x5, so adequate water surface movement to get enough gaseous exchange in at night and maintain equilibrium in the tank ie Balanced between the atmospheric air, water column, Substrate(High CEC)and keep at right temp.

But in High tech tank we want to dramatically change the [CO2]aqu and Mix the ferts.,( we can not change the laws of physics!) so with mass diffusivity being so slow in aqueous media we need a higher turnover (x10) to enable us to reach the new desired levels [CO2]aqu relatively quickly. But once at the desired level and equilibrium is reached the x10 turnover will be helping the [CO2]aqu fall. So once we have reached the ideal [CO2] turn the turnover down to x5!( get the slow mass diffusivity to work to our advantage) As after all we have to do is to maintain the [CO2]aqu to take care of surface loss and plant uptake. During this X10 turnover period would (IMO) be the ideal time to have a higher rate(BBS) of CO2 input (have the Ferts auto dosing at same time too) this period can last for say one hour. Then reduce turnover x5 with just enough CO2 (BBS) to maintain those ideal levels. This lower flow rate won’t need as much surface ripple either as all we want is a slower flow, so water return for this could possibly be lower, therefore reducing CO2 loss even more.

Run the x10 turnover for one hour when lights go off too.(no CO2 OFC). These two one hour periods with X10 (or more!) turnover rates may be even enough to keep on top of the detritus build up as good as 24/7 x10

There we have it, dawn of the ‘Eco High Tech Tank’. Yes more initial setup costs timers, pumps etc.

But less CO2 usage, less power consumption with running lower turnover rates for most of time, less heat loss from tank, less evaporation from tank……

Two workout periods for fish. Just like nature in way in estuaries, rivers, rain forests, windy periods The water flow rate changes and isn’t constant

For smaller tanks the effort and cost just wonted be worth it but for the bigger tanks with multiple canisters, pumps, power heads CO2 diffusers/atomisers etc the relatively small cost of a few timers might make a difference to the running cost.

Will it work – dunno, what settings for turnovers times –dunno Its just an idea of a Noob

But can’t see why it wouldn’t work as well

Thanks for reading – Kudos due ( hope the grammer spelking was Ok)

I welcome any feed back

Zeus

 

[Zeus.]

I do feel you are overcomplicating things

yes may be but same was said of hybrid cars some time ago but still there are here, just running with the idea thats all

as well exposing yourself to killing all your fish if your boost diffuser system jams on.

I have had numerous timer failures in my years, most common is complete timer death, no display nothing. Does lead to algae obviously if CO2 timer fails. But second most common failure I have encountered is stopping of timer with output in what ever state is was on. One time I emptied 1 litre of EI macro solution into my tank giving 300ppm nitrate for a couple of days, no issues as nitrate is generally not toxic at these levels, contrary to popular incorrect knowledge. Second time it was a liquid carbon dump and this did kill fish and melt plants. I have much better timer control now.

Timer issues - yes good point KISS principle all over. was that the old analogue macanical timers or the new digital times or both ?

- How will you know when to stop your boost diffuser (10 minutes ? 25 minutes ?) as, if it works, you will have a fairly limited time window, 5 minutes maybe, before you will start gassing your fish.
- CO2 is not very soluble in water and I suspect you will not be able to get enough CO2 to dissolve from a conventional diffuser into the water in order to raise the CO2 of 500litres in 30minutes as you hope for.

Trail and error or pH controler maybe

Sorry not convinced your idea gains anything helpful other than yet another way to kill your fish more easily.

Agree 100%, just running with the idea. your post highlight the failings of the idea which is what I am after then I can decide if to try it or not.
After all what did folks think of Takashi Amano when he fist added baking soda in his tank and overcompicated things, but High tank tanks are still here not saying this idea is anything like as profound as his in any way. but it has it points - maybe!!!

 

[Zeus.]

OK - would you buy or think buying the latest

ADA Eco-Utratech- Ecosystem Complete

Product features – small compact unit with twelve independent/configurable (via software) power outputs240v/110v/24v/12,v, pH sensor, temp sensor, flow sensor, Precision variable( by software) CO2 valve , WiFi,LAN, HDMI, VGA,DVI,USB, software with Windows/Mac compatibly, allows you monitor/adjust/program Temp,CO2 input, CO2 ppm, flow rate though pump, Pumps RPM pump, ampage usage by pump/canister, control program for lights adjust volt/amps plus auto dosing control/tank topup control also. Then add smart app on your phone with full control/monitoring/alarms etc.

Would you buy it, think would help make Aquascaping easier/better ?

Basically give 'God' like control over the tank. If the answer is NO I’m wasting my time.

 

[Zeus.]

The link for the ADA Eco-Utratech- Ecosystem Complete isn’t possible is not on the web or the dark web, I would need a spinal interface link me up to web and the addresses would end something Like …zeus/noob/backoff mind/wizbangideas/offhisrocker/adaecoultratechecoesystemcomplete thnk you get my drift

But if there was one and at £50 mine would be ordered. So I have been searching/reading on remote management systems with smart phone apps etc. There is a lot out there. Some very expensive industrial system very cool but cost too much. Then there the reasonably priced ones available. Eg LightwaveRF and Energenie.

I was thinking I might be able to vary the water pumps speed by altering the current. So emailed the company’s in question and got the answer NO. Wasn’t put off with that reply took a dimmer light switch rigged up a plug and socket and gave it a try. They were right, decrease the available current to the pump it slows a little then it stops. So the idea of controlling water flow rates with dimmer switch is out the window. The pump is on or off, yes can adjust the values but can’t do it remotely or on a schedule without a remote adjustable value, so dropped that idea.

Wasn’t after light dimming as already have Kessil controller for lights

Most off the Remote units use a WiFI or Lan connection to communicate via smart app with the main control unit. Ok no problem with that as long as the schedules is being run from the control unit. After all remote access is just a bonus. It’s the RF communication between the control unit and the sockets, it can be hit and miss at times. We need something reliable 100%.

So ordered myself

Energenie LAN Power Management System £65 (great specs) with smart app control.

Which will allow me to play with the timings easy, 16 a day per socket (4off) and I can have a play with the “Zeus booster” idea that’s will cost me £70 extra for extra CO2 equipment.

If the “Zeus boost” idea fails ( which it might well do ) I ready to add another tank CO2 wise

 

[ian_m]

Energenie LAN Power Management System £65 (great specs) with smart app control.

I looked into one of these, but after seeing all the fish killing and greenhouse flooding issues people had (see Amazon reviews), I steered well clear. Mainly the review issues of "really good when it works" rings alarm bells. Also rather large (40cm) thus will have issues fitting neatly on a lot of aquarium cabinets depth wise.

I finally after much searching, built a 12 output industrial quality programmable logic controller (PLC) to control my tank. (see DIY projects list) and has obviously worked 100% since fitting. Even changed the clock correctly today as well.

For your Zeus booster you really should be looking at using a PLC, normal on/off timers won't cut it. With a PLC it will be able to turn off CO2 when correct level, control multiple lights and lots of other interactive things.

 

[Zeus.]

I looked into one of these, but after seeing all the fish killing and greenhouse flooding issues people had (see Amazon reviews), I steered well clear.

Cheers

was that the Old USB one as the new Lan one has battery backup so schudule returns to normal after power off.

can you remember the name of the thread you did with the PLC ?

found it How to use a PLC to control your fish tank.

 

[ian_m]

was that the Old USB one as the new Lan one has battery backup so schudule returns to normal after power off.

Ah yes USB. Right pain in a*8e as needed to be near a PC to configure/setup.

CO2 (and temperature) control using PLC. Done.

My PLC big boy timer. The MNDB. (read thread to see meaning) is below.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/how-to-use-a-plc-to-control-your-fish-tank.42993/

I am currently working on MK II where you just set light on and off times and it times CO2, wavemaker, bright lights, fertz and air pump around the one timer setting as opposed to having loads and loads of individual timers like mine above has.