Medication advice Please.

[Geraint]

Hi. I need a bit of advice please.

3 days ago, I noticed my long finned bristle nose pleco looked shorter. His fins were rotting away. I ordered Primafix (anti fungal) and Myxazin (antibacterial) which arrived today, and I’ve put the recommended dosage of both in the tank this morning.

All fish are now looking very lethargic (Drunk), and my Pleco can no longer keep his balance when he tries to swim.

I have no experience with medication, so I don’t know weather to do an immediate water change to dilute it a bit, or if this is normal behaviour of fish when medication is added and to carry on with this 5 day treatment.

50 Gallon Tank contains :
2 bristle nose plecos
5 rummy nose tetras,
9 cherry barbs,
3 bronze corries
3 pigmy corries
4 pearl gouramis

1 external 1000l/h filter.
1 internal filer 2000l/h
Heavily planted low tec tank
At least 25% water changes once or twice a week.
Temp 23-24 degrees.

I don’t have a test kit, so can’t give you any reading sorry.

 

[greenmac75]

hi geraint,
I was advised against pimafix by both my lfs, have you checked that you can use both products at the same time?

I was recommended esha 2000, worked for me and it covers a lot of bases, my galaxy rasbroras had a fungal infection.

I would check out if you can use your products together before continuing.

 

[Crossocheilus]

Most medications say that they deplete oxygen in the water so you need to increase surface agitation and/or add an air stone. Also it is generally not recommended to add more than one medication at once unless they specifically state that they can be used together.

Deteriorating fins can be caused by some form of poor water quality, the damaged tissue is then infected by bacteria/fungi. Most of these medications only actually deal with the secondary infection, which is only helpful if you can solve the root cause.

Good luck!

 

[alto]

Always water change before adding medication

Always consider oxygen levels in water before you add medications
- is this a chemical that will sequester oxygen? (many do)
- what is your tank temp? dissolved oxygen levels in water decrease significantly with temp
- is this relevant to your particular fish? look at a fish health manuals, look at scientific articles with fish locale details (some will list actual measured oxygen in capture area waters, some will just provide descriptive information)

Medications are stressful to fish - any stress depresses the immune system of fish - are fish more stressed by the disease? or by what you are doing to (possibly) treat the disease?
Most (fish) medications available OTC are "broad spectrum" in the hopes that they will target something that is in your tank (some of the anti-bacterials sold in the trade are only effective against water column bacteria with zero measured activity against the types of bacteria causing disease IN fish, so check the literature ... you may not be sure that the anti-bacterial is effective against the particular agent affecting your fish BUT at least it has some efficacy in fish)

I'm assuming that Primafix is Pimafix - it has been observed to negatively impact fish in many anecdotal situations ranging from minimal to severe fish stress to actual death (within an hour of tank addition) ... API doesn't (won't?) provide any information of Quality Control applied to manufacture of this product; they also don't provide information on how to effectively remove product from water column in case of an adverse reaction.
You can always perform 25% water changes at intervals of 8-12 hours, and add activated carbon/charcoal to your filter.

If your tank & tap water is similar parameter & you can match temp & you know how much chlorine etc your water provider adds & you calculate how much dechlorinator is needed (you want at least a 2-3x excess) etc, then you might perform a 70% - 90% water change; it's often less stressful than a "bad" medication choice.

Looking at your tank parametres, I'd leave the temp 23-24C, or possible decrease slightly to 22 - 23C
You have lots of theoretical flow, so don't need to add another filter, but just set one filter return to gently splash, & the other to provide a rolling motion of the water surface.

Keep tank dimly lit.
Stop feeding fish - not only to limit waste in tank but also fish may not be digesting as actively as needed ... though they will continue to eat.

 

[alto]

From another forum (though you'd need to confirm with Waterlife that this list is still current)

Myxazin

Malachite Green (0.17% w/v), Formaldehyde (0.24% w/v) and Acriflavine (0.11% w/v).

 

[Geraint]

Sorry for not replying straight away. I’m having a major melt down.

Doing a water change as we speak after seeing one of my pigmy corries floating upside down.

The internal filter has a venturi aeration nozzle which is on full blast. plus I've added another 2000 l/h hang on filter for added aeration.

I only did a quick google search to see if they could be used together. I read somewhere that primafix is a natural oil, and so should be ok. But I’m highly doubting that now. I used both because the pleco has red around its fin bones suggesting a bacterial issue, but also has white on the fins suggesting fungal. Basically, I’m an idiot. I’m hoping I haven’t just killed them all.

 

[Crossocheilus]

You made very reasonable assumptions,

Basically, I’m an idiot. I’m hoping I haven’t just killed them all.

I know the feeling

I killed one of my wonderful (and expensive) bamboo shrimp putting him into my high tech when the co2 was really high. Just because I was impatient...

The important thing is to learn from it and move on, even the greatest achievers have experienced failure, its the ability to improve that leads to success. Keep persevering and I really hope your fish pull through.

 

[alto]

Basically, I’m an idiot.

You're not an idiot!
you've just been sucked in by marketing, welcome to the club

No one hoping to sell you stuff is going to admit that treating small tropical fish for diseases of unknown origin is greatly subject to chance.

When a fish displays the symptoms you describe, I look to improving my water quality in hopes that other fish won't succumb, reality is that the very obviously ill fish are likely going to die regardless of my (belated) actions.

 

[Geraint]

You can always perform 25% water changes at intervals of 8-12 hours, and add activated carbon/charcoal to your filter.

If your tank & tap water is similar parameter & you can match temp & you know how much chlorine etc your water provider adds & you calculate how much dechlorinator is needed (you want at least a 2-3x excess) etc, then you might perform a 70% - 90% water change; it's often less stressful than a "bad" medication choice.

Keep tank dimly lit.

I can never keep my tap water a constant temperature. I always add it very slowly over a period of an hour with an air tube connected directly to the tap. I've just done a 25% water change the quicker way though because I'm panicking. I’d love to take the lot out.

I have work tomorrow 5am – 6pm, so I think I’ll do another 25% at 4am before work. And another 25% as soon as I get back. I’ll try and book half day to get back sooner. My tetras, barbs and gouramis look fine for now, but my corries and pleco’s are in trouble.
Those medicines are in the bin.

Switched the light off by the plug and it’ll stay off all tomorrow at least.

I don’t have any activated carbon. I didn’t think I needed any with a planted tank. I’ll be ordering some tonight from ebay though.

Thanks for the quick advice.
I cant believe how quickly that went bad.. I’m gutted

 

[Another Phil]

Hi Geraint,
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Your catfish are scaleless so you should only use 1/2 the recommended amount of copper based meds ie the malachite green, and probably similar info for the Formalin as well. Searching the web for "safe medications for scaleless fish" might help a bit. That would also explain why the other fish are ok.
good luck phil

 

[PARAGUAY]

I agree with what has been said very few medications are used in tandem. Esha the exeption I think. Could it be a substrate problem

 

[Geraint]

Thanks again for the advice. I'll be doing a 25% water change twice a day until things improve. None of the fish have died yet, but without medication, I dont have much hope for my long finned bristle nose. and I'm not sure if my corries have recovered yet (still not as active)

Hi Geraint,
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Your catfish are scaleless so you should only use 1/2 the recommended amount of copper based meds ie the malachite green, and probably similar info for the Formalin as well. Searching the web for "safe medications for scaleless fish" might help a bit. That would also explain why the other fish are ok.
good luck phil

Makes alot of sense. but the thought of adding any more medication to the tank scares the sh*t out me after last nights episode. and a few above have suggested that an increase in water changes (twice a day) might be enough? I've seen websites that say Pimafix and melafix are completely safe for scaleless fish, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I agree with what has been said very few medications are used in tandem. Esha the exeption I think. Could it be a substrate problem

I've read a few reviews on esha where corries (also scaleless) have been cured of fin rot. eshas website says it's safe for corries, shrimp, snails and algae eating fsh... So I assume its safe for the plecos. but I can equally find good reviews in regards to melafix/pimafix, so I'm not at all confident. it seems to be an anti fungal and anti bacterial all in one? If it worked it'd be perfect, but I dont want to make the same mistake as last night.
ESHA 2000 (UK) - INGRED: 6.3 mg ethacridine lactate, (AKA: Rivanol, an antibacterial acridine, sometimes used to treat shigella.) 1 mg proflavin, an acridine closely related to acriflavin and used for protozoans (velvet), gram positive bacteria, and fungus. 3.2 mg Copper ++ - Treats: protozoans (ich and velvet). Note: Effective against parasites, but often toxic to fish, espceially in soft water. 0.26 mg methyl orange - a multifunctional product.
Seems to contail copper. and that bit about often toxic to fish.... I dont know.

:

Alto.. you seem to be much more experianced than me. What would you? stick to the twice a day water changes only and hope for the best or medicate?

 

[alto]

pH & hardness of water also impact medications - any chance you can get some numbers on these?
(your local water provider should be able send you a report with tap water details ie not just pH & GH, KH etc but also elemental analysis).

I'd wait 3 days before adding in any new/further medications, yes you may lose fish, but chances are you will lose fish if you increase stress levels with more/new medications.

If the issue is actually bacterial, then I'd be looking to add an antibiotic such as sulfathiazole, kanamycin, neomycin ... (Seachem offers some of the "cleanest" meds for fish)
Note that even when treating with an effective medication, you still need to perform daily water changes & optimize oxygen levels; after a water change, medication may be re-dosed for total tank volume or just for change volume - this is determined by the "durability" of the particular medication under tank conditions.
Fish Health manuals or online scientific articles are often good sources for this sort of information; the Skeptical Aquarist has working links to some of the Fish Health Management series published some years ago by EDIS (University of Florida) (these include the basics of aquarium management while treating, also specific disease articles).

Most of the meds such as the 2000 are trying to cover all the bases by adding a bit of everything & not therapeutic doses of anything ...

If your fish seem less stressed with the water changes, then right now, that is the best method.
Wait another 24 hours & then re-assess.
While waiting, sort out what's available in terms of medications.

Those medicines are in the bin.

I wish you'd take these back to the shop & lodge a complaint, note the lot numbers & send an email off to the manufacturers ... this is the only way to get warnings on labels; make sure you cc several levels of company management

 

[alto]

Just checking in to see if fish are doing a bit better

 

[Geraint]

long finned pleco died last night. my other pleco and one bronze corry died today (and the other two bronze corries dont look far behind). I haven't seen my three pigy corries for a while. . Completely gutted. Had them for just over a year, but they could have lived for another 7.

I'm still doing twice a day 25% water changes.

I've ordered interpet anti fin rot and fungus which should arrive on monday, and I plan on dosing at only half strengh. I've picked this medication because a friend of mine who has a huge pleco uses it on his tank at full strengh. I just hope it's not to late for the last 2 corries. I'm more than half expecting to come home tomorrow to find them dead.

I've taken your advice and asked my water provider (welsh water) to send me a report. I should have it monday.

I will be buying a U.V steriliser. I'm reading up on them and trying to figure out which one is best for my tank.

I already do at least a 25% water change at least once a week, sometimes twice depending on how much time i find myself with.
I might replace my internal filter with somthing more effective. I need to look nto it.

just gutted.

 

[alto]

Sorry for the sad news - any chance anything came into the tank in the last 1-3 months? (it's nice to at least imagine an outside agent!)

Also check with your water provider re any work on the system, check your local area for any water works maintenance, or building projects that may've triggered something in the water quality.

Do your research before investing in a UV - look at the output energies for various lamps/systems & then compare for what's needed to affect common freshwater fish pathogens ... I'll try to find that chart later this week & post the link.

I might replace my internal filter with somthing more effective

 

[Geraint]

Its the medication. The combination of the two, or just both medications being too strong as full dosages for the scaless fish. No doubt in my mind that whats happened is a direct rsult of my actions.

The initial fin rot i saw on my pleco could have been a combinaton of things.
This month:
- I Replaced my external filter. my original one starte leaking, so i bought a new one. kept the same media though..The original external filter had a UV steriliser on it. the new one didn't.
- I changed the substrate on over half the tank to a darker type of playsand. the sand was washed befre putting it in, but the process might have stressed the fish a little. although they didn't look unhappy.
- I also bought a couple of new plants.

 

[alto]

No doubt in my mind that whats happened is a direct rsult of my actions.

Possibly but generally fish will recover from medication stress (the negative impact of Pimafix is an issue the manufacturer needs to address) ... your description of the pleco suggests internal bacterial infection & this is generally related to water quality or long term "mild" stress (inappropriate tankmates etc) ... sometimes cories seem to just fade away (I think this is something internal (viral? inbreeding?))
When treating tanks with cories, I just always start at 1/4 - 1/2 dose, then (usually) increase to full dose without issue - cories are generally stressed re reduced activity but no aberrant swimming/breathing ... they just return to normal activity once medication is cleared & you realize how quiet they'd grown.

If fish were not panicking during the substrate exchange that seems an unlikely long term impact, that said, play sand can have additives to reduce molds etc (I think this is more a NA trend than UK).
Plants are more likely to introduce parasites ("egg" stages) than anything bacterial (& would need to come out of a fish display or banked system), or possibly copper/fertilizers but again this is not too likely when adding in just a couple plants (but I don't add Singapore etc plants without a good rinse & never in the pot with the rock wool etc).

Sometimes, stuff just happens ...

Looking at your tank list, I'd increase the shoal numbers on the cories (especially for the pygmy's) & tetras - even if the pearl Gouramis seem to ignore their smaller tankmates - that said, there are loads of instances of unlikley fish combinations that work for years ....
I don't know the dimensions of your tank, it's possible that the 2 bristlenoses were just not going to share that space long term ...

 

[Geraint]

Tank Dimentions : D40cm, H40cm, L100cm.
The long finned pleco would always chase the other pleco away if he got to close. and the other pleco would always run away. but i figured thats normal for plecos. I never saw them fighting in any way.
I'd hope its not water quality. I already have two filters. I've never missed a water change, and the tank is filled with plants. I feed them once a day, somtimes skipping a day.... I do have ongoing problem with green spotted algae on my anubias, but I've been putting that down to too much light. I dont know.

your description of the pleco suggests internal bacterial infection & this is generally related to water quality or long term "mild" stress (inappropriate tankmates etc)

I didn't see any signs of internal bacteria. There was no bloting, raised scales. His eyes and colour looked normal. Is there anything else to look for? All i saw on him was bits of white on the edges of his fins, which had rotted away a bit (making him look alot shorter and smaller), and a slight red colour (where his white markings usually are) along his fin bones.. I figured this was puerly external bacterial and fungal. he died beore the fin rot reached his body, so i assum it wasn't that that killed him. He did stop eating though.. not sure if thats a sign of somthng internal?
none of the other fish showed any symptoms before the medication. All seemed happy, swimming out in the open, with no aggresion towards eachother at all. the cherry barbs would chase the cherry barbs, the gouramiswould chase the other gouramis ect.

but I don't add Singapore etc plants without a good rinse & never in the pot with the rock wool etc

I bought hairgrass that came in a pot with wool. I put them in the tank still in the pot with wool for the first few days until I'd done the subsstrate change.. I didn't think this would have been an issue. I bought them on ebay from someone in devon.

 

[alto]

bits of white on the edges of his fins, which had rotted away a bit (making him look alot shorter and smaller)

While this may begin with external trauma (other fish or décor or increased water column bacteria/DOC's), it quickly becomes internal as well.

a slight red colour (where his white markings usually are) along his fin bones..

Classic sign of internal bacterial infection.

He did stop eating though.. not sure if thats a sign of somthng internal?

This is a major sign of disease/unwellness - they will continue to eat while they are feeling slightly unwell, at this stage he may've had internal parasites or even "impaction" (fish that are "designed" to eat a mostly vegetable/aufwachs diet in nature, may eat too much "meat" based foods in aquaria (frozen bloodworms, pellet, flake etc) resulting in poor longevity), secondary infections are rapid in fish (there is always a "normal flora" of external & internal pathogens, some of which are helpful to the host ... until balance is lost).
Fish that rush over in response to food, only to eat a few bites, spitting out most of the food, then retreating are often suffering from internal parasites (of various sorts), this is in contrast to fish that remain aloof from food (food response has been lost).

It's easy in planted tanks to not pay sufficient attention to buildup of substrate detritus which is why I suggest water quality may've had some impact, though if this was the pleco that was always chased & never the chaser, stress maybe the original issue: fin damage may've been done in an instant when fish could not retreat far/fast enough, once the damage is past the edges re

making him look alot shorter and smaller

internal bacterial infection is quickly established, then fish is also in a situation when he's been vanquished quite roundly & he's now trying to stay out of dominant territory & often won't come out to eat etc ... signs can be quite subtle, just a fin flick can remind the loser than he'd best stay away ... usually a 100cm tank is sufficient for a couple of BN's as they are often not that territorial but there are always exceptions

(I had a female ram that terrorized everyone in the tank, including any cories ... she got her only little 20 gal with a horde of guppies for company ... tank was heavily planted & they didn't seem to mind her ... apparently guppies are not as silly as they seem but I often wonder if those studies were done with wild stocks rather than the inbred fancy lines)

The plant is likely not the issue.