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Importance of methodology and controlled environment

so complicated that there is no way to find anything
Just pointing out there are many many variables. In order to make it scientifically valuable you need to standardize a lot, and even then it's not always applicable to everyones situation. It will give better insight but there will always be unexplained problems due to those variables. A lot of claims in the hobby/hobbymanufacturers are derived from data from analysis from horticultural research (where there is so many more money to do research). Do these results carry over to our underwater plants? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
 
I don't want to disappoint you
You are not to disappoint me. This thread is not about me and my experiments. It's about hobbyist crying and seeking solutions to their problems. I don't want you to give your money to me, I'm just asking you if you think you can get your questions answered just by speaking and discussing. For example, hobbyists think that there are just few kinds of algae in our tanks: BBA, Staghorn, diatoms, GSA, GDA. You can speak about it endlessly ... or you can buy a microscope and see if there is something on it. After you study a few books on algae and find out that there are hundreds of algae species in your aquarium water, you may change your simplistic view of algae. That's just one example. In other words, I just think that without investing (whether our skills, time or money) into some serious research first, we won't see any meaningful results. As Jose says, we will have just some limited knowledge based mainly on our subjective experiences. Sometimes it may help us, sometimes it will fail. If you think we can build our knowledge upon such a weak foundation like "30 ppm is safe for fish" or "CO2 mist is the most efficient dissolution method" without testing it in controlled environment, then keep the endless discussion about these topics.
 
CO2 mist is the most efficient dissolution method

So what do we have to do to proof this ardjuna? If you do this experiment and you see the same as T. Barr will this be scientific proof then? How many people have to do it? How many years can go by until scientists say ok this is true but I dont care because it doesnt have an application for me? Im really interested in knowing these.

"30 ppm is safe for fish"
I said normally safe which changes the whole affirmation. I didnt say always.
 
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hobbyists think that there are just few kinds of algae in our tanks: BBA, Staghorn, diatoms, GSA, GDA
hundreds of algae species in your aquarium water
This is a good example: by defining them as a few main groups, we can use some standardized ways to handle them (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm) and this seems to have succes in a large amount of the cases.. If this treatment doesn't succeed there is the possibility we stumbled upon one of the many alternatives and then the simplistic view is not good enough. But now we already cleared a lot of problemcases. This doesn't make the simplistic way invaluable, just flawed to some extent.
 
This only proves that if you do an experiment now showing T Barr is wrong it will have the same weight as T Barrs theories.
First of all, you took the whole sentence out of context. First, you need to formulate your hypothesis. Then you have to create an environment where you can test it. The testing have to be replicable so that you can verify your results. If the results confirm your hypothesis then you have a theory (however, this does not mean it's the ultimate truth). So strictly speaking you can't be never sure that your theory is true, but you have made a theory based on some replicable results. Anyone in the future may refine, alter or expand your theory, or your theory may show to be wrong. But from the scientific point of view, theory is much better than just hypothesis or speculation. It's based on some results, scientific findings, known methodology, replicable data. Anyone can verify it. Anyone can subject it to his own analysis. Until someone finds it to be otherwise, the theory holds to be true.

Second, I do not do any experiments to show T.Barr is wrong. I do my experiments to find out some answers to my personal questions. I may do my personal comments on T.Barr, and may do the wrong conclutions also. That's fine. We all do.

So what do we have to do to proof [the CO2 mist hypothesis]? If you do this experiment and you see the same as T. Barr will this be scientific proof then? How many people have to do it? How many years can go by until scientists say ok this is true but I dont care because it doesnt have an application for me?
If you do the experiment in a controlled environment and describe in detail your methodology (and proceed in accordance with scientific methods) then you can consider it as a proof under the tested conditions. In other words, if you develop a theory based on replicable and verifiable results, you may consider it a proof (until someone else falsifies it). Normal planted tank can't be considered a controlled environment IMO. As I already said, the problem of T.Barr is that he did all such experiments in his tank, not in some controlled environment, and that he did not described in detail his methodology, so no one can really verify his results.

I didnt say always.
Me neither.
 
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some controlled environment

Can you elaborate what this is?
He did explain his methodology, he said what instrument he used and how he did his experiment. But he obviously didnt get into how he calibrated his instruments etc. He gave measured results as O2 ppm and the rest was kept exactly the same. Could he be lying? Sure. But there is more anecdotal evidence like ADA and everyone keeping ADA style tanks who have very little dissolved co2 and for me I saw great growth with mist.
 
Every scientific article on the web has a chapter called "Materials and methods" (which is what I call "methodology" here). The articles are short versions of the full research, so sometimes the details are not as detailed there. But it should be described how exactly and under what conditions the experiment was conducted. What was the light intensity, temperature, plants used, etc. The goal is that anyone else who imitate the exact conditions described will get the same results. Then there should be the "Results" chapter which describes the results which one should expect if he follows this experiment. There should be enough descriptive data (graphs, charts, pictures, tables). For example, if I study the growth rate of different plants under CO2 mist vs. fully dissolved CO2, there should be some comparative pictures, graphs with the record of measured biomass gain, etc. If Tom Barr did anything like this, I never saw it (which of course does not mean he really did not do it). I just said I don't know of any of such methodology of any of his experiments.
If youre testing things related to a planted tank how can this not be a controlled environment.
Controlled environment means you have all the variables under control. Normal planted tank have such a complex environment that it's practically impossible to control everything in there. This is the reason why I think it can't be a truly controlled environment. In reality, we will never be able to control the environment completely, but we should do our best to do so. So using normal planted tank in our experiments is not a good idea. Of course you can do it, but the results won't be probably replicable in other tanks (due to the huge amount of unknown variables in the original experiment).
 
-He measured O2 production by plants which is linked to photosynthesis and thus plant biomass production so no need to measure plant biomass, thats only one way of doing it. Do you agree that more O2 in the water = higher photosynthesis rate if everything else is kept the same like surface agitation?. No need to show graphs or anything of course you can but its a simple experiment to show a simple thing.

Im not saying he did a conclusive experiment but we might die waiting for one that satisfies all scientific criteria. And why would he do it if only the aquascaping world is interested in this? Maybe if a company finces it. To see the results we dont need to know all parameters in the tank because they are kept constant and only one of them changes (CO2 delivery method). If you want to measure everything then the experiment will become to complex and will deviate you from the actual repeatable results of changing a single variable. will it still be true in every other circumstance? I doubt it, probably only where CO2 is limitting in some way.
 
Many hobbyists want to know what's going on in their tanks. Many hobbyists experience different kinds of problems and ask here (or on other forums) how to solve it.

I think that the best way to solve any problem is to test is under controlled conditions. Let me discuss this in more detail here.

The strength of scientific methods is in the repeatability of the experiments. Not the interpretation of the results but rather the repeatability of the experiment is what has the biggest value. In other words, the experiment is of any value if anybody can repeat it with the same results elsewhere in the world. And on the contrary, the experiment is useless if you can't repeat it with the same results. Not until we understand this, can we move our hobby any further. The biggest problem with our discussions (seeking answers for our questions) is that we base our findings on non-verifiable results.

A few examples:
1) Let's say I make an experiment with growing few aquarium plants under controlled conditions (light intensity of 100 µmol PAR for 10 hours a day, water temperature of 25°C, hardness of 5°dGH, alkalinity of 3°dKH, nutrient content of 35 ppm CO2, 30 ppm NO3, 3 ppm PO4, 20 ppm K, 0.3 ppm Fe, moderate flow, inert substrate, etc.). I'll find out that these plants grow at different growth rates => some grow faster than others. If I describe the methodology (i.e. the exact parameters of this experiment) well enough, anybody elsewhere can do the same experiment and get the same (or very similar) results.

2) Let's say I make the same experiment but I don't know the exact parameters of my setup => I don't know the exact PAR values of my light intensity. I don't know the exact nutrient content of my aquarium water nor the substrate. I don't know what other factors are in play in my tank. So I can't describe the methodology of my experiment. If someone on the other side of the world tries to repeat this experiment, it's highly probable he will get a different results. Why? Because no one knows the exact parameters of the initial experiment.

Now, why do you expect to find any reasonable solution to your problems in your own tank, if we (nor you yourself) know the exact parameters of your aquarium? I think that this is the core problem of most of our discussions. Without first learning the exact parameters and conditions in our tanks, we are doomed to endless speculations. Without the proper methodology and controlled environment we never ever can be sure what's really going on in our tanks.

This is my main objection to Tom Barr also. He makes a lot of conclusions based just on his own speculations. As far as I know, he never did any trully controlled experiment with well documented methodology. So no one can faithfully repeat his results. He uses a clay-based substrate in his main tank, very high CO2 levels, very low pH, very high light levels, quite high flow, big army of algae-eaters, do frequent water changes ... but in fact, we don't know all the parameters which may be in play in his tank. And this is the reason, why his method can't work universally and under all conditions (i.e. with different kinds of substrate, different water parameters, different plant species, different fish etc.). His method works in his tank under the given (fully unknown) conditions. But we don't know what these conditions really are. We know just what he lets us know or what he thinks is important for the success. But that's not trully scientific method. That's nothing more than speculation based on some experience. Until he is able to controll all the variables in his tank, and tell us what variables are at play there and how they affect the whole, we won't be able to repeat the same results elsewhere in the world. We can be lucky and have the same or similar results, but we will never be sure why. It's never a good idea to do any experiments in fully uncontrolled environment like our tanks. And the main problem with T.Barr is that he did all his experiments right in his tank.

Takashi Amano is a similar example although he seems to know better what he's doing. His system is based on the use of concrete materials with concrete parameters. He doesn't let us know the exact methodology behind his system, but if you use his ADA system there's much higher chance you succeed as the crucial parts will be always the same (light intensity; nutrient content in the substrate and water column; filtration capacity, efficiency and flow; CO2 management). You are also recommended to use water with low hardness and alkalinity. If you follow his advice, you can repeat his success elsewhere in the world with much higher probability than with T.Barr's recommendations. Unfortunately, this know-how (hidden methodology) is very pricey. Even in this case we will never be sure why.

So are we doomed to endless speculations or is there any hope in more hobbyist using proper scientific methods?

While I appreciate the opportunity to learn something new,It sure is tiresome to me listening to your bashing of Tom,Clive.
Give it a rest would ya?
Many have been able to duplicate the result's Tom suggest's are possible and some will alway's struggle .
 
You are not to disappoint me
I know :) you are passionate about planted tanks, I can't imagine you giving it up

In other words, I just think that without investing (whether our skills, time or money) into some serious research first, we won't see any meaningful results.
This is exactly what I meant, but it can be disappointing to realize that a lot of hobbyists are not bothered by meaningful results. This is maybe off-topic but it does happen not only with planted tanks but with many things in our lives. Intellectual curiosity shall be a priority part of education. It's the door to en endless and enjoyable path, isn't it?

...then keep the endless discussion about these topics.
Yup, but this is much easier than learning... forums are plenty of false assumptions, I would say that forums are 90% collection of false assumptions on tank management, 5% swap/sale posts and 5% basic advice and material review.

Marcel, I have said before (and I keep on saying) that your website is IMO one of the best current sources for planted tanks information, but unfortunately only a few of us, even in the hobby, find it really exciting. And I believe the reason is that even when complex things are easily explained, you have to re-read some parts, some others won't be really understood, lots of things will remain unexplained and confusing, etc. And of course, many people are not prepared for this. Forums are plenty of people that need a definitive answer to their problems but unless for very basic management issues, most of the "big questions" remain open and are actually recurrent. Another typical reaction is the "threaten of new approaches and ideas" that can be quite controversial for a lot of people, as it entails: 1) that your little knowledge universe collapses, and that 2) embracing the new theory you admit you were wrong.


Jordi
 
Hi all,
Marcel, I have said before (and I keep on saying) that your website is IMO one of the best current sources for planted tanks information,
Definitely "hats off" to Marcel, and I think he is going in the right direction.

If people haven't seen his web-site I would definitely encourage them to visit.

Having said that I also think it is going to be really difficult to quantify all the factors that lead to success, however you might define it. We went over some of the same ground in 2012 in <"Low Energy, Water Changes, CO2, Algae, and Pseudoscience">.

cheers Darrel
 
I can't imagine you giving it up
Believe it or not, from time to time I'm really disappointed by the reactions of some people, and I regret I invest so many time (and so much money) into this hobby.
So I can definitely imagine the time when I give up.
 
While I appreciate the opportunity to learn something new,It sure is tiresome to me listening to your bashing of Tom,Clive.
Give it a rest would ya?
Many have been able to duplicate the result's Tom suggest's are possible and some will alway's struggle .
isn't it these types of questions/arguments that help science progress
 
isn't it these types of questions/arguments that help science progress
Yes,Measured opinion's,expierience's,should and will alway's generate discussion/learning.
Doesn't need to include argument's .
Just need to speak your truth quietly and clearly while listening to other's.
Even the dull and the ignorant such as myself, have their story
 
My advice is to give advice/scientific data, but don't need to argue with someone else. I'm a BMW fan, he's a Mercedes fan, she's a Jaguar fan... it all leads to flame wars and an overall loss for the hobby. Lets all accept each others opinions, take some as more scientific then others. If there are no attacks, there will be no need for defense.

I have tried to replicate other hobbyist's setups and regimes with no success. Just for the sake of discussion, I have also tried to replicate some of Marcel's conditions in his tests, but to no avail. Of course, mine isn't the same controlled environment as his!
 
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